Mistress repower #2 begins....
02-07-2016, 04:46 PM
#851
Banned
Ron,
I built 2 different combinations a carbed 750 HP 572 and a 650 HP modified version of the Mercury 500 EFI that he specced out with the idea of selling them as a package. Bob is a good friend and a colleague that I do business with nothing more.
I give Tim a hard time because he does the same to me here and on facebook. What he always forgets is he took the first swing and continues every chance he can. As for the the comment I made yesterday in a PM to Tim, it started last year after the "chit hit the fan" I got a call that showed Bob's phone number on caller ID. It was a white guy trying to talk like he was "ghetto" saying I hit his car and left my phone # on his car and wanted to know how I was going to handle it. After listening to his BS for minute I knew it was bogus and hung up. Short version is I hit *57 so the authorities could trace it. They did get a good phone # but the district attorney was not willing to spend the time or money to prosecute for a 1 time incident. Forward to yesterday when I got the same phone call 10 minutes after bringing this thread back to the front page which led me to believe it had to be Tim. Tim is denying he did it so whoever has nothing better to do with your time you have more than just my attention.
Not sure why the Orlandi Performance thread looking for information was removed but I did not request it. I can take whatever the keyboard cowboys can dish out and welcome their opinions. If I can stand up for my friends I can surely stand up for myself. The smart members will read through the nonsense and make their own conclusions. My work speaks for itself and is the reason I have worked 7 days a week for many years. This year is going to be different as we are going to close Saturday and Sundays when the weathers nice so my employees, my family and I can enjoy our boats as our customers have year after year.
I built 2 different combinations a carbed 750 HP 572 and a 650 HP modified version of the Mercury 500 EFI that he specced out with the idea of selling them as a package. Bob is a good friend and a colleague that I do business with nothing more.
I give Tim a hard time because he does the same to me here and on facebook. What he always forgets is he took the first swing and continues every chance he can. As for the the comment I made yesterday in a PM to Tim, it started last year after the "chit hit the fan" I got a call that showed Bob's phone number on caller ID. It was a white guy trying to talk like he was "ghetto" saying I hit his car and left my phone # on his car and wanted to know how I was going to handle it. After listening to his BS for minute I knew it was bogus and hung up. Short version is I hit *57 so the authorities could trace it. They did get a good phone # but the district attorney was not willing to spend the time or money to prosecute for a 1 time incident. Forward to yesterday when I got the same phone call 10 minutes after bringing this thread back to the front page which led me to believe it had to be Tim. Tim is denying he did it so whoever has nothing better to do with your time you have more than just my attention.
Not sure why the Orlandi Performance thread looking for information was removed but I did not request it. I can take whatever the keyboard cowboys can dish out and welcome their opinions. If I can stand up for my friends I can surely stand up for myself. The smart members will read through the nonsense and make their own conclusions. My work speaks for itself and is the reason I have worked 7 days a week for many years. This year is going to be different as we are going to close Saturday and Sundays when the weathers nice so my employees, my family and I can enjoy our boats as our customers have year after year.
02-07-2016, 05:54 PM
#852
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Brian, you keep taking swings... I just respond..
As far as that number I assure you it's not me, if I was gonna call you I would just call you! So agains you assume things And it makes you look like an idiot. Go ahead and Persue that number I gaurantee its not me so f u and your assuming, the only obsession is the one you have with me and that is very obvious... Keep assuming because if you think I woukd hide behind fake names and phone numbers you are mistaken big time.... Clearly I have no reason to hide from you and can care less about posting it telling you whatever I want with MY user name or MY real name... You don't scare me at all, never will either ... Keep taking stabs it's just gonna cost Bob more sales if I keep talking let it go already ...
As far as that number I assure you it's not me, if I was gonna call you I would just call you! So agains you assume things And it makes you look like an idiot. Go ahead and Persue that number I gaurantee its not me so f u and your assuming, the only obsession is the one you have with me and that is very obvious... Keep assuming because if you think I woukd hide behind fake names and phone numbers you are mistaken big time.... Clearly I have no reason to hide from you and can care less about posting it telling you whatever I want with MY user name or MY real name... You don't scare me at all, never will either ... Keep taking stabs it's just gonna cost Bob more sales if I keep talking let it go already ...
Last edited by Full Force; 02-07-2016 at 06:43 PM.
02-07-2016, 06:10 PM
#853
Registered
You called the district attorney over a prank phone call?!? lmao!"Yes 911.... I got bit by a mosquito, send the National Guard and bring lots of ammo!!"
Last edited by ICDEDPPL; 02-07-2016 at 06:12 PM.
02-07-2016, 07:10 PM
#855
Registered
Tim, before you go getting yourself into trouble....
I would NOT recommend reducing spring pressure. The cam lobe design, and valvetrain weight, dictates the spring pressure. A mild camshaft lobe, say something like an off the shelf crane cam with 242/248, 610/630 lift, will NOT need, nearly as much spring pressure, as a 242/248, with .680 lift!! Why? Because you cannot increase lift, without making the lobe more aggressive so to speak. This is why solid rollers need more spring pressure, compared to a hydraulic, with the same .050 duration numbers and lift. Bob's cam cards, dont tell you dik, other than how to degree the cam, and what the .050 numbers are, and peak lift numbers are. There are no seat to seat numbers, no .200, .300 numbers, or anything that can give you an idea on what the lobe is shaped like.
Take these two cams for example.
244/255 @ .050 .630/.630 lift ok. Seat duration is 278/290. Solid roller.
now, comparable hydraulic roller.
245/255 @ .050 .612/629 lift. Seat duration is 304/314!!!! Hydraulic roller.
At first glance, if one was just looking at .050 numbers, and lift numbers, they would be making a big mistake. The lobe on the solid roller, is MUCH more aggressive. Lunati's recommends a spring with a 506lbs/in rate for the solid roller, and 403lbs/in for the hydraulic. Using "lift" to determine spring rate, is incorrect. Using .050 duration numbers, to determine spring rate, is also incorrect. Companies like lunati, crane, comp, and so on, have spent lots of time and money spintron'ing cams/valvetrain combos, to give you a spring recommendation.
The point I am trying to make, is that NOBODY that i know of is using a .400 lobe (680 lift), with a 241* duration hydraulic camshaft lobe, in an ENDURANCE application. If it was so easy, to just add lift, with no penalty, don't you think crane/mercury marine, or even general motors, would just stick larger lobes in their engines? No, they dont, because they actually don't want big spring pressures, and they want their valvetrains to go the distance. You think it costs more to go with a .400 lobe, instead of a .370 lobe? Heck no it doesnt.
here's the problem. You can run a cam thats aggressive on the dyno, and see a good number, and you can run that engine down the track for 10 seconds, with no issues. Start holding that thing at 6,000rpm, and oil temps start getting well into the 200's, thinning out, and that lobe keeps jerking the heck out of that lifter, valvesprings heating up (losing pressure with temp), valves start bouncing off the seats, slack forms in valvetrain, and before you know it, you end up with broken lifters, broken rocker trunnions, cam lobes beat up, valve stems beat up, and so on. Then, when that happens, like a lifter fails, or rocker fails, the part itself gets blamed. Its happening more than often with a certain cam guys setups, and by some pretty well known builders. but thats another topic. The valvetrain stability starts with the cam lobes. Everything else must be matched up to the cam's particulars. You match springs to the cam, not pick springs because "you're buddy runs a crane hyd roller to 6,000 with 140/420lb springs", and therefore you should be able to as well with your custom hyd roller. That train of thought, will get you in trouble.
All the magic vocabulary in the world isn't going to give you the setup you are looking for. My advice, you want to get 300 hours out of those 540's before touching them, get yourself some proven camshafts. If thats not in the cards, I recommend calling cam motion with your grind number, and see if you can get more details on the cam's specs, or, have it scanned on a cam doctor. Then get with someone who KNOWS big block valvetrains, and can put a spring package together that will help that setup live. I certainly wouldn't be taking spring pressure away from it, without that information. Too much spring pressure isn't good, but too little spring pressure, and you're gonna have a pile of broken parts that first run at 6000rpm for several minutes.
Sorry, but unless the setup , meaning THAT camshaft, with those valves, those pushrods, those springs, those retainers, has been spintron tested, the required spring pressures, are purely a guess. And if you're going to guess, you're probably best off , guessing to the higher side of things. I'd be very curious to see how those "out of the box", AFR springs are for pressures, and distance to full stack. You ideally want them to be in the .070ish range from coil bind at max lift, for spring life and stability. Not sure how you would get that when you have different intake/exhaust lift, with the same springs, let alone a "general" spring that they give that is good till "XXX" lift.
I would NOT recommend reducing spring pressure. The cam lobe design, and valvetrain weight, dictates the spring pressure. A mild camshaft lobe, say something like an off the shelf crane cam with 242/248, 610/630 lift, will NOT need, nearly as much spring pressure, as a 242/248, with .680 lift!! Why? Because you cannot increase lift, without making the lobe more aggressive so to speak. This is why solid rollers need more spring pressure, compared to a hydraulic, with the same .050 duration numbers and lift. Bob's cam cards, dont tell you dik, other than how to degree the cam, and what the .050 numbers are, and peak lift numbers are. There are no seat to seat numbers, no .200, .300 numbers, or anything that can give you an idea on what the lobe is shaped like.
Take these two cams for example.
244/255 @ .050 .630/.630 lift ok. Seat duration is 278/290. Solid roller.
now, comparable hydraulic roller.
245/255 @ .050 .612/629 lift. Seat duration is 304/314!!!! Hydraulic roller.
At first glance, if one was just looking at .050 numbers, and lift numbers, they would be making a big mistake. The lobe on the solid roller, is MUCH more aggressive. Lunati's recommends a spring with a 506lbs/in rate for the solid roller, and 403lbs/in for the hydraulic. Using "lift" to determine spring rate, is incorrect. Using .050 duration numbers, to determine spring rate, is also incorrect. Companies like lunati, crane, comp, and so on, have spent lots of time and money spintron'ing cams/valvetrain combos, to give you a spring recommendation.
The point I am trying to make, is that NOBODY that i know of is using a .400 lobe (680 lift), with a 241* duration hydraulic camshaft lobe, in an ENDURANCE application. If it was so easy, to just add lift, with no penalty, don't you think crane/mercury marine, or even general motors, would just stick larger lobes in their engines? No, they dont, because they actually don't want big spring pressures, and they want their valvetrains to go the distance. You think it costs more to go with a .400 lobe, instead of a .370 lobe? Heck no it doesnt.
here's the problem. You can run a cam thats aggressive on the dyno, and see a good number, and you can run that engine down the track for 10 seconds, with no issues. Start holding that thing at 6,000rpm, and oil temps start getting well into the 200's, thinning out, and that lobe keeps jerking the heck out of that lifter, valvesprings heating up (losing pressure with temp), valves start bouncing off the seats, slack forms in valvetrain, and before you know it, you end up with broken lifters, broken rocker trunnions, cam lobes beat up, valve stems beat up, and so on. Then, when that happens, like a lifter fails, or rocker fails, the part itself gets blamed. Its happening more than often with a certain cam guys setups, and by some pretty well known builders. but thats another topic. The valvetrain stability starts with the cam lobes. Everything else must be matched up to the cam's particulars. You match springs to the cam, not pick springs because "you're buddy runs a crane hyd roller to 6,000 with 140/420lb springs", and therefore you should be able to as well with your custom hyd roller. That train of thought, will get you in trouble.
All the magic vocabulary in the world isn't going to give you the setup you are looking for. My advice, you want to get 300 hours out of those 540's before touching them, get yourself some proven camshafts. If thats not in the cards, I recommend calling cam motion with your grind number, and see if you can get more details on the cam's specs, or, have it scanned on a cam doctor. Then get with someone who KNOWS big block valvetrains, and can put a spring package together that will help that setup live. I certainly wouldn't be taking spring pressure away from it, without that information. Too much spring pressure isn't good, but too little spring pressure, and you're gonna have a pile of broken parts that first run at 6000rpm for several minutes.
Sorry, but unless the setup , meaning THAT camshaft, with those valves, those pushrods, those springs, those retainers, has been spintron tested, the required spring pressures, are purely a guess. And if you're going to guess, you're probably best off , guessing to the higher side of things. I'd be very curious to see how those "out of the box", AFR springs are for pressures, and distance to full stack. You ideally want them to be in the .070ish range from coil bind at max lift, for spring life and stability. Not sure how you would get that when you have different intake/exhaust lift, with the same springs, let alone a "general" spring that they give that is good till "XXX" lift.
02-07-2016, 07:18 PM
#856
Registered
Tim, take a look thru cranes catalog, and comps master lobes, and see if you can find a camshaft with the term "marine" in its description, with .680 valve lift, at similar .050 duration as you have.
Similar duration crane "marine" camshaft is around .620 lift
http://www.cranecams.com/120-125.pdf
Even the comp master lobes, "marine hi lift", with your duration, is .612 lift.
http://www.compcams.com/Technical/Ca...obeCatalog.pdf
Similar duration crane "marine" camshaft is around .620 lift
http://www.cranecams.com/120-125.pdf
Even the comp master lobes, "marine hi lift", with your duration, is .612 lift.
http://www.compcams.com/Technical/Ca...obeCatalog.pdf
02-07-2016, 07:26 PM
#857
Registered
I got a call that showed Bob's phone number on caller ID. It was a white guy trying to talk like he was "ghetto" saying I hit his car and left my phone # on his car and wanted to know how I was going to handle it. After listening to his BS for minute I knew it was bogus and hung up. Short version is I hit *57 so the authorities could trace it. They did get a good phone # but the district attorney was not willing to spend the time or money to prosecute for a 1 time incident. Forward to yesterday when I got the same phone call 10 minutes after bringing this thread back to the front page which led me to believe it had to be Tim. Tim is denying he did it so whoever has nothing better to do with your time you have more than just my attention. .
So you called the district attorney , because someone pranked you?? They are on the case??? OOOOO very scary brian! I have family that works for the states attorney office. I'm dying to ask them if they can help me if someone prank calls my phone! Not that they are too busy working on murder, rape, domestic violence, financial crimes, property crimes, and all of that. Maybe they have an "internet bully victim" unit, that specializes in prank phone calls . I'll find out and let you know.
is there a special unit within the district attorney's office, that handles internet "threats" , of bashing heads in with baseball bats, meeting face to face to duke it out, other online antics, and racial slurs against blacks and gays from you? Or do you think they would be more interested in a "prank phone call"?
02-07-2016, 07:29 PM
#858
Gold Member
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Olmsted Falls,Ohio Marblehead,Oh
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Sooooo many regrets with this build, I am financially stuck with running what I have for now and checking things as I can, if I could redo it now and make things perfect I totally would, but the funds are not there, should something explode I am forced to deal with that when or if it happens, lets hope it does not... but I will deal with that then... I will have to see what I can find out from Kip at Cam motion, I wish I went directly to him like I have for all my ford engines...
I know if anything happens I will hear "I told ya so" but I have no choice but to keep what I have at the moment... hoping a could seasons then refresh upper ends and do it totally different....
Hope to see you next Sat Joe.....
I know if anything happens I will hear "I told ya so" but I have no choice but to keep what I have at the moment... hoping a could seasons then refresh upper ends and do it totally different....
Hope to see you next Sat Joe.....
02-07-2016, 07:30 PM
#859
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lolololol
so you called the district attorney , because someone pranked you?? They are on the case??? Ooooo very scary brian! I have family that works for the states attorney office. I'm dying to ask them if they can help me if someone prank calls my phone! Not that they are too busy working on murder, rape, domestic violence, financial crimes, property crimes, and all of that. Maybe they have an "internet bully victim" unit, that specializes in prank phone calls . I'll find out and let you know.
Is there a special unit within the district attorney's office, that handles internet "threats" , of bashing heads in with baseball bats, meeting face to face to duke it out, other online antics, and racial slurs against blacks and gays from you? Or do you think they would be more interested in a "prank phone call"?
so you called the district attorney , because someone pranked you?? They are on the case??? Ooooo very scary brian! I have family that works for the states attorney office. I'm dying to ask them if they can help me if someone prank calls my phone! Not that they are too busy working on murder, rape, domestic violence, financial crimes, property crimes, and all of that. Maybe they have an "internet bully victim" unit, that specializes in prank phone calls . I'll find out and let you know.
Is there a special unit within the district attorney's office, that handles internet "threats" , of bashing heads in with baseball bats, meeting face to face to duke it out, other online antics, and racial slurs against blacks and gays from you? Or do you think they would be more interested in a "prank phone call"?
02-07-2016, 07:37 PM
#860
Registered
Sooooo many regrets with this build, I am financially stuck with running what I have for now and checking things as I can, if I could redo it now and make things perfect I totally would, but the funds are not there, should something explode I am forced to deal with that when or if it happens, lets hope it does not... but I will deal with that then... I will have to see what I can find out from Kip at Cam motion, I wish I went directly to him like I have for all my ford engines...
I know if anything happens I will hear "I told ya so" but I have no choice but to keep what I have at the moment... hoping a could seasons then refresh upper ends and do it totally different....
Hope to see you next Sat Joe.....
I know if anything happens I will hear "I told ya so" but I have no choice but to keep what I have at the moment... hoping a could seasons then refresh upper ends and do it totally different....
Hope to see you next Sat Joe.....
Everybody thinks designing a marine cam vs a car cam is about reversion only. There is sooo much more to it. Hence why i will stick with proven cams from companies that spend millions of dollars in r&d, rather than draw sometihing up on a computer program, sell it to a customer, and hope it makes a good dyno number. Then when something goes wrong, the part can be blamed, or the aseembly. Never the cams fault .
