A big knot: Cobra-Coyote-MSV-Beep Beep
03-22-2007, 07:15 PM
#1
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Thread Starter
A big knot: Cobra-Coyote-MSV-Beep Beep
Does someone know how to explain me the relationships among the boats MSV of Miller-Saccenti, the Cobras and Coyote of Jean Claude Simon since on the Beep Beep the writing appears "Cobra 38R MSVs?"
Both the 44'MSV and the Cobra-Coyotes 38' they seem to have the signature of J.C.Simon in the hull.
How many hulls Beep Beep mono 38' they were built? 3? 4?
Or was modified only the deck in one of two boats of 1976-77?
I post some pictures that show the difference on deck.
1) 1975 first version
2) 1976 Bacardi Trophy 1976
3) 1976 CTC? With the windshield damaged.
Note the different design and positions of the Road Runners too.
Both the 44'MSV and the Cobra-Coyotes 38' they seem to have the signature of J.C.Simon in the hull.
How many hulls Beep Beep mono 38' they were built? 3? 4?
Or was modified only the deck in one of two boats of 1976-77?
I post some pictures that show the difference on deck.
1) 1975 first version
2) 1976 Bacardi Trophy 1976
3) 1976 CTC? With the windshield damaged.
Note the different design and positions of the Road Runners too.
Last edited by Black Tornado; 03-22-2007 at 07:36 PM.
03-22-2007, 07:56 PM
#4
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Marco....I can share with you a little of what I remember. Sonny Miller, Bobby Saccenti and Jon Varese were the people behind MSV. They built a 44 foot boat and ran it as an inboard with straight shafts. It didn't work out very well, so they changed the bottom and installed sterndrives.
The boat won the very first Benihana race. The 44 foot boat with the power of the day, was not the fastest, but it could handle big seas.
Along comes JC Simon and he rents the 44 mold from them and blocks it at 38 feet.
Joel Halpern starts Cobra and calls the first boat, the race boat Beep Beep, "designed by JC Simon".
Now you know from being on that side of the pond, that all JC did was take the design of MSV for the hull and make it a 38 footer .....and for the deck, he took the design of Paolo Caliri, whom he claims to have studied under while in Europe.
There was also a coffe colored one made that was at the Key West race in '76...I'll try to find the photo.
Right on schedule, JC and Joel start having disagreements and the next thing JC has stated he wants to break away from Cobra and do a new design.
This is where I come in. I paid him to design a new hull 38 feet long for racing in open class for me....banana boat co.
We agreed that he could use the molds to sell his own boats out of, in 2 sizes 38 and by blocking it again 34 feet. I would sell the same 2 sizes as banana boats.
He started a new company called Coyote to do this. Now remember Coyote was the animal that was always trying to get the Road Runner....but never did.
Tells you a little about the parting relationship between Joel and JC. JC and Reggie went through the same thing when Reggie and Garbrecht started Fountain boats...to break the claim JC had, I think is the real story behind the beak.
Anyway, I went out and won the first race with the boat. The deck started out as his copy style, but Aronow helped me to cut off the wedge in front of the cockpit and he gave me Cigarette race hatches to use on the Top Banana. He said the wedge on the deck actually forced the boat deeper into the water, offsetting the trim trying to lift it up.
I made some race 34's and a couple of pleasure versions. JC made a few Coyotes in the various sizes and then the mold was sold to Sonic. The 42 Sonic you see today was from my design for the 38 with a swim platform.
The boat won the very first Benihana race. The 44 foot boat with the power of the day, was not the fastest, but it could handle big seas.
Along comes JC Simon and he rents the 44 mold from them and blocks it at 38 feet.
Joel Halpern starts Cobra and calls the first boat, the race boat Beep Beep, "designed by JC Simon".
Now you know from being on that side of the pond, that all JC did was take the design of MSV for the hull and make it a 38 footer .....and for the deck, he took the design of Paolo Caliri, whom he claims to have studied under while in Europe.
There was also a coffe colored one made that was at the Key West race in '76...I'll try to find the photo.
Right on schedule, JC and Joel start having disagreements and the next thing JC has stated he wants to break away from Cobra and do a new design.
This is where I come in. I paid him to design a new hull 38 feet long for racing in open class for me....banana boat co.
We agreed that he could use the molds to sell his own boats out of, in 2 sizes 38 and by blocking it again 34 feet. I would sell the same 2 sizes as banana boats.
He started a new company called Coyote to do this. Now remember Coyote was the animal that was always trying to get the Road Runner....but never did.
Tells you a little about the parting relationship between Joel and JC. JC and Reggie went through the same thing when Reggie and Garbrecht started Fountain boats...to break the claim JC had, I think is the real story behind the beak.
Anyway, I went out and won the first race with the boat. The deck started out as his copy style, but Aronow helped me to cut off the wedge in front of the cockpit and he gave me Cigarette race hatches to use on the Top Banana. He said the wedge on the deck actually forced the boat deeper into the water, offsetting the trim trying to lift it up.
I made some race 34's and a couple of pleasure versions. JC made a few Coyotes in the various sizes and then the mold was sold to Sonic. The 42 Sonic you see today was from my design for the 38 with a swim platform.
03-22-2007, 07:56 PM
#5
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Thread Starter
1) 1977 Marina Del Rey. Totally different fwd deck.
2) 1978 CTC The same boat of 1.
3) 1980 Benihana GP. British Doxford leased the Beep Beep renaming Limit Up.
2) 1978 CTC The same boat of 1.
3) 1980 Benihana GP. British Doxford leased the Beep Beep renaming Limit Up.
03-22-2007, 08:07 PM
#6
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Thread Starter
Many Thanks Charlie!
I was really waiting for your intervention.
I now have the ideas more clears speaking of the hulls MSV-Cobra-Banana-Coyote....
It still stays to understand the hulls Beep Beep.
I was really waiting for your intervention.
I now have the ideas more clears speaking of the hulls MSV-Cobra-Banana-Coyote....
It still stays to understand the hulls Beep Beep.
03-22-2007, 08:10 PM
#7
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Picture 2 in post # 5 shows Wayne Vickers with his back to the camera ....he was the throttleman, Joel sitting on the bolster with the hat on and Cap't Leo, Joel's professional navigator, with the sunglasses.
Pic 3 has Willie Meyers on board as navigator for Michael Doxford. Willy was my navigator that year and he had already committed for this one race to Doxford.
Pic 3 has Willie Meyers on board as navigator for Michael Doxford. Willy was my navigator that year and he had already committed for this one race to Doxford.
03-22-2007, 08:23 PM
#9
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Thread Starter
Picture 2 in post # 5 shows Wayne Vickers with his back to the camera ....he was the throttleman, Joel sitting on the bolster with the hat on and Cap't Leo, Joel's professional navigator, with the sunglasses.
Pic 3 has Willie Meyers on board as navigator for Michael Doxford. Willy was my navigator that year and he had already committed for this one race to Doxford.
Pic 3 has Willie Meyers on board as navigator for Michael Doxford. Willy was my navigator that year and he had already committed for this one race to Doxford.
I remember Wayne Vickers(another Big guy!) in Viareggio in 1976. That Beep Beep was an exciting surprise for me after years of Cig.36'. See a hull so different.
That year was very exciting because I saw for the first time a Cig.35'. And what a 35'! The fantastic American Eagle of Gentry and Powers.
Last edited by Black Tornado; 03-23-2007 at 07:47 AM.
03-22-2007, 08:34 PM
#10
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Thread Starter
Last for tonight
1) Was this 34' that you speak in post #4 Charlie?
2-3) The only one J.C. Simon design that was sold in Europe: Dry Martini 3 a new Coyote 38' for Guido Niccolai and Davey Wilson at the 1979 Viareggio-Bastia-Viareggio.It was a fiasco with the hull delaminated in a race with moderate sea.
1) Was this 34' that you speak in post #4 Charlie?
2-3) The only one J.C. Simon design that was sold in Europe: Dry Martini 3 a new Coyote 38' for Guido Niccolai and Davey Wilson at the 1979 Viareggio-Bastia-Viareggio.It was a fiasco with the hull delaminated in a race with moderate sea.
