befu

Just had to post this! Was reading the beginning of this thread and this was your first post on it, December 1, 2011. Yeah, your just like me with your schedule predictions. The first two pages just made me laugh as I reviewed what I "thought" I was getting into. Oh man oh man.....

I go back and forth on if I should have bought it. Honestly, I shouldn't have, but that is too late. While I have $13k wrapped up in it now, I also have 3 more 350's short blocks sitting upstairs with one good, one a nice rebuild with a new crank and one for parts. I have the two old alpha drives, one good transom assembly and a trim pump and cylinders. So, quite a few parts left over I guess.

The boat is going to work well for us when I am done with the interior next summer. Already have this winter's projects laid out to do. When I got the boat, we had 5 children from <1 to 11. Now we have 9 from 1 to 12 years old. We are foster parents and got a sibling group in that turned into a long term placement, so who nows when or if they leave. I roll with it and am glad to be in a position to help them out. This brings it to around 30 kids we have had through our home now, pretty good feeling.

Anyways, I look at the boat that Jiffy is selling and keep thinking about it. Want to just go and write a check from home equity for it, but too deep into this one I guess. Plus most of our boating will be on a inland lake that is about 4 square miles with a few trips to lake michigan, so the 27' LS will work well. Just need to add some seats I guess until the kids get too big and I need to upgrade. Or buy another boat so we just run two...... hmm.....

Oh well, it has been fun and I have learned a lot. Hope to involve the kids more over the fall and winter as we continue to work on it. I am close, I am close on this thing. We will see if we get them running this week yet.

Good night, Brian

sprink58

Brian...the country needs more folks like you and your wife. Those kids will benefit from their time with you for the rest of there lives...you can't put a $ value on that.

Jiffy's boat would be a good one...but it probably wouldn't meet your needs any more that the 272 will. Keep the money....save up for a 35' cruiser...enjoy the 272.

As for mine...going to Bravo's added 6~8 months to my schedule...but it will be special for sure...but what a project.

'night.

John

befu

Another rough day on the boat. After charging the battery, drug it out again. Starter still sounds like it has stripped gears some of the time as it cranks ok and then grinds. I think the battery is giving out and the engagement pinion is slipping back out.

Starboard motor still runs and will not shut off with the key. (black wire on back of alternator is hooked up again to purple wire)

Port motor cranks but did not fire. Didn't get real far because I tried starting it while the starboard motor was running to see if it helped the voltage/amperage supply, but the starboard motor died from lack of fuel. Fuel pump was on, but it has stopped working. Fuel pump is hot, very hot like burn your fingers in a couple seconds hot! So now I need to fix that and consider my next move. Maybe a mast and keel........

So yeah, looks like an approved setup from Holley didn't work so well for me. Will post what I find when I dig into it.

Sprink: the bravo switch was an ambitious one for sure. Enough so that it let me know that I did not want to do that.

Brian

befu

While this is discouraging, it also makes me think it through as too why.

All three starters were doing the grinding gear thing, I doubt that they all went at the same time. Port was replaced because it started to do it, so it is probably still good. After replacing the port one, it did it again and then the starboard one started acting up, all in the same time period.

Thinking back, this is also when my fuel pump probably went bad and started acting like a giant resistor sucking down current to get that hot. So maybe a combination of low battery and bad fuel pump drawing current..... hopefully.

I will get a new fuel pump and put a pressure switch in the line to turn it on and off so it is never running without fuel flowing through it. Live and learn I guess. Was going to work on it this weekend, I think I will just spend time with the wife and 9 kids - then attack it Monday again.

Brian

hq_

This sounds so familiar. I've learned that there are at least four factors that can cause grinding: improper shimming, imporperly torqued mounting bolts, low voltage and faulty bendix many regard as the obvious problem before checking the other possibilities first.

The mechanic who had worked on my boat earlier had reused badly corroded mounting bolts which couldn't even be torqued properly, as well as not bothering to check alignment and shim the starter accordingly. Less than 100 starts later the bendix gears had stripped, fortunately the ring gear was still ok.

It's amazing how much better many starter motors work after cleaning battery posts, battery switch posts, starter/solenoid post and greasing them properly to prevent further corrosion. The quality of the battery switch is a factor, especially with high compression engines; the model Formula used until 1993 or so was great. On many boats I've changed battery and ground cables to 75mm² (AWG 00+, about half an inch thick with insulation) and never had any problems with starter motor being starved of voltage or current. As long as the batteries are ok, of course.

It's been interesting to follow your project. 272 is one of my all time favorite boats and flat glass Formulas remind me of a black 302 I really drooled after back in '89. And was the second highest bidder on it.

befu

Second highest, I have had quite a few of those. Best of the losers as I like to say!

So next question, how do you know how to shim a starter? Not like you can see it while it is in the boat? Doubt it is the starters, too many of them. Could be voltage as I mentioned. Bolts are new.

Going to go to the next post and summarize how the motors have sounded while cranking since being put in. Maybe the timeline and situation may help some one point out the issue(s).

befu

Alright, history review. Got boat, motors ran but needed major work so I replaced them with vortec 350's.

We got the SB motor to fire up first. Cranked it a bunch of times, got the distributor set and it lit off. fine tuned the timing and it ran well. It also has the starter from the old motor on it. No problems, feeling good. Never a grinding noise.

Port motor, new starter. Port motor wouldn't light off, finally determined it did not have spark. We have tried this thing several times but if you review the thread, I had to play with the carb float and fuel pump several times before we had good fuel to the motor. Tried it two, maybe three different times, never a problem with the starter. Actually cranked over nice and strong.

Then one day while I am not there, the mechanic is working on it trying to chase the ignition problem down. he gets it to spark finally, but the starter is making this nasty grinding noise. Afraid it might be the pinion or ring, we pull the starter out. It looks fine, ring looks fine. I figure it is the planatary reduction inside. No problem, we will just put on the second new starter.

We pull it back out, hook up the hose and start the cranking ritual again. After finding out the spark issue, we put the iginition wires back and "fixed" it right. Well, we crank and crank and crank on it but not starting. Finally put the ignition wires "rigged" back up so we have spark again and it barks to life for about 2 or 3 seconds before it stalls. Trying it again and all of a sudden it starts grinding again bad. it kicks in, starts to crank and within a half to two revs it grinds.

So I am just like crap, another broken starter, what are we doing on this engine? Well, I want to hear something run, so I swap the hose and try to start the starboard engine just for the moral boost. Guess what, it does that same damn grinding sound. OK, now I am not thinking it is the starters, I am thinking it is the battery being low. So we charge it overnight, pull it out and try it again. After a few attempts, the port starter grinds again. I hook up the multi meter and when I hit the starter, the voltage goes from 12.9 down past 11 real fast as the grinding kicks in. Hmm, bad battery?

So one of the guys pulls out a good optima battery out of his truck and we install that and try it again. Still grinding. Might be better, but still not working.

So I decide to put hoses on both drives. We will start the SB motor first, get it running and then try to start the port motor with the alternator helping. Get it running, warm a bit, set the idle up a bit. Get ready to try the port motor and the SB motor dies. Try it again and it will not fire. Sometimes grinds, sometimes doesn't. What the heck, no fuel! Notice the fuel pump isn't running, but the switch is on. Not sure what to do, I tap on the pump, check connections and I notice the fuel pump is not running but it is dang hot. Can't touch the top of the motor case for even 2 seconds without burning pain.

So we put it away. Now I have to solve the no spark on port motor which I believe is in one of the wires connected to or around the shift interupt. I need to fix the fuel pump and add a pressure switch to turn it on and off. I need to solve the SB motor still running without the key being on, but not starting when the black wire on the alternator is disconnected. and figure out why the starters are grinding. heck, the fuel pump drawing too much current might be part of the problem on the starters, never know. Dying battery, some poor connections, amp consuming dying fuel pump, shimmed wrong.... all adds up to the grinding maybe.

Oh-well........... If these four newer kids never go home and live with us for the next 15 years, boat is going to be too small for us anyways.

Brian

sprink58

OK...trying to wear your shoes here from 1500 miles away...but truth fact and real I think you have a voltage drop problem...maybe from a resistance issue in the primary starting circuit, switches at the helm but a voltage drop.

Buy or borrow a REAL plug it in the wall battery charger/boost starter with a 200 Amp setting...connect it to the starting circuit via battery, Perko Switch or however you are set up and see if this thing will crank, run and stay running. You may have an alternator output problem. If you are running a T-Bolt IV or similar system you have to have solid voltage or it falls apart.

Also...investigate blockage, restriction, etc. in the fuel system intake (line, intake screen, etc) and or discharge side of the pump. I think the pump is hitting a wall on one or both sides and that's why it's over heating.

I think the grinding you are hearing maybe the brushes shuttering on the communicator of the starter as the voltage drops...just a guess.

Just my thoughts trying to see a bigger picture. Hope it provides some clarity...good luck.

97FASTech

Many different ways to serve your country. This is one that is over looked. You are the true ending to one of those mastercard commercials. "PRICLESS"

befu

Sprink, Monday I will pull that fuel pump and have a look see at it, try to find out if it is shot or something else.

Also going to buy a new battery for it and go through the wiring again. I think it is good as the SB motor was cranking and running good, now it copies the Port motor. But still better to check and clean contacts.

John, it is a service to God and country, hence the name of the boat. Been asking for signs, they have been rather obvious even for me lately.... His whispers in the dark have been rather direct and loud.

Just remember, there is always somebody out there doing more or who has it worse. Last weekend was one of those humbling moments for me as we talked with another foster couple who is taking care of a set of baby twins. Blind, feeding tube, stomach disorders, physically handicapped.... I was like WOW!!! They looked at us with 9 kids and were like "No way could we do that". I guess it just depends on who you are, the burdens are appropriate.

I love reading about things like the Boyne thunder poker run up in northern Michigan, I believe that is to benefit kids in the area who need help. That is great. I would love to participate some year, take some of the foster kids out to show them how the other 10% lives, but my boat really needs about 8 more feet and 20 less years on it.... Maybe someday. It is amazing how they have been raised. The fact that I pay for my own house and do not have a land lord baffles them. they think the government pays everyone, that is what they are there for. YIKES!

Well, thank you for the advice and encouragement, we will tackle this thing again next week. Was actually a good day around the house today with the 9 kids, had fun.

Brian