302SR1

I agree something doesn't sound right. As the previous owner of Cudas boat, I turned 16X26 4 blade Kaama props 5800-5900 with a pair of warmed over 420's (maybe 475 per side).

Planning was quick( although did take some finness)

This was with 1.54 to 1 TD 502's and spinning them in.

I am aware that there is a weight difference ( alot ) between a 302 and a 402 but I would think that the HP difference should put them somewhere in the ball park.

Also, dont even consider 3 blades!!! I tried a set on the 302 and the vibration was terrible!!! I think the combination between older props and additional vibration of the 3 blade is what caused the failures.

The 4 blades still seemed to have a natural frequency but not nearly as bad as the 3's

Torrsionals are a voodoo science and can do strange things that don't make sence, and the engine change can make something that worked in the past, unbearable now.

I am curious too as to what RPM's the 375's turned the original 3 blades?

alj

Morning guys,
Problem I have is there is no real benchmark for me with this boat. I am the third owner. Of course Formula isn't much help because they claim they have no records on boats older than 1988 when they moved the factory. Supposedly they lost all those records in the move. (didn't they invent the computer before 1988?) so I really have no way to verify the original setup. I only have the second owners knowledge on what it was before he started fooling around with it. The original owner sounds like some rich guy who just used this thing as a toy and didn't mess around with it much. But....who knows! Based on other KAAMA boats I've seen, this is what I do know. It was the Early KAAMA package before the innovation motors. The motor is the Hardin Marinized package. Headers were the Hardin P-1000 with the KAAMA logo plates on them. Innovations used GIL headers I believe. If the original motors were 330's they would have stock cast iron manifolds. I saw that on a F402 KAAMA in Vegas. So with the headers it was at least a 375 hp package if not the 400hp package. In 85 Formula was working with some of the older Hardin packages (single ram steering is best give away) and they made it into the early boats. Single ram steering may have also indicated a lower HP package like the 375. Most of the F302's in 85 had the dual ram steering so maybe the higher HP package or the Innovation motor package. Not sure there.
Anyway, The second owner of my boat wanted better performance. I know he dove into the drives but I believe only to the extent of the inside CV joints, the gimble bearings on the intermediate housings and the outer CV's. Also changed the boots. On the drives themselves if anything it was bearings and seals. On the motors it was a different story. By the time I got ahold of it lots had been changed to get more performance. The big thing was that he had changed the drives to rotate out. This made the boat ride bow high. Also allowed the RPM to run very high - 5600 rpm or more. But it didn't want to plane off. The motors only lasted about an hour of running time. Found out that the port engine had been rebuilt twice and both had less than an hour of time with him blowing the port side up just before selling it to me. When the other one let loose on Lake Michigan and my engine builder inspected it he told me to pull the other as well because things were a little scary in the starboard motor he was looking at. The 2nd rebuild on the port engine turned out to be even a worse nightmare, just enough to get the engine to run! Everything was junk. Knurled pistons to make them fit, gouged cylinder walls only honed, you name it. This previous owner had an engine builder who really screwed him over! I was able to salvage very little on those engines. Thankfully my builder had some interesting short block assemblies he knew of. And I felt the KAAMA"s could handle it. So my benchmark for this poor boat was crappy engines that were set up with drives that turned out and the setup had never really been tested much. And being a newbie to KAAMA's I wouldn't have known anything was wrong. I thought everything was normal.
After redoing everything and changing the drives back to turning in I'm now starting from scratch. One interesting thing is that Andrews F402 KAAMA in Spokane Washington is running three blade short hubs but he says they are 22 pitch in a post I read somewhere. This boat does plane amazingly fast with the 17 x 24 three blades. I was actually thinking that would be an area of performance sacrifice in selecting props. First time out I expected the same planing as with the drives turning out. Plates down, drives down, throttles to 3000 rpm and I was going for a cup of coffee. Boy was I shocked when I nosed the boat over and was scrambling to get the plates up before I stuffed it at 15 miles per hour on a calm lake. It was really nice for a boat this size. I actually got a little running time between broken props and planing was consistently good. The boat rides extremely flat though, even with the drives at the top of the yellow and into the red slightly the bow stays down. My guess is that is normal for a KAAMA. So there is a whole bunch of this 40 foot hull in the water at planing speeds. Rpm was at best 4200 or 4300. Speed in the low 50's. I truly expected planing problems with those 16 x 27 four blades I tried yesterday but they just blow out too easy. My buddy Tom was with and said it seemed they just weren't grabbing the water and couldn't believe it based on how intimidating those props appear. (he drives a Carver....what does he know!)
Josh, I'll be interested to see what your drive code is. Its just to the right of the serial number on the bottom of the id plate. Anyone who knows the secret code let me know. Thanks for looking in on me.....Al

Perfectmix

Alj
I just got doen doing what I do most on this thing: cleaning! Checked the plates in my drives for the "secret #" that is where my ratio is stamped 1-1. It is just to the right of the serial #. I donno what the 8 means. Would call archer marine in Cali and pic there brains. They will be able to help with that question.
I will dump this 357 in at Grand Traverse Bay and swing down to Ill. to check that 402 out. Should only take about 10 hours. and 600 gallons of fuel! hehe. Anyway hope you figure it out.

alj

Hello boyz,
I'm learning more about KAAMA's then I ever hoped. Fishead Mark has done a bunch of gearchanges and told me the "+8" indicates an 8 % overdrive gearset. Talked to a guy in Chicago today that has worked on these pups and he tells me there was a performance setup 1:1 and a cruising setup +8%. The logic that we can figure out among my friends is that the F402 was really considered a cruiser and to have the cruising speed lowered they change the gear ratio. Kind of like my 402 having a 323 rearend gear for gas mileage and all you guys having a 456 rearend gear for drag racing. Now the trick is figuring out what prop will work. Fishead says it's cheaper to change the gears than to change props. Now I have these new engines that make their HP at 5000rpm and up and the boat is geared for running at lower rpm.
Anyone have any ideas to impart on me about prop selection? What's involved in the gear change in the drive. I saw somewhere that the gears were originally made for KAAMA by Casale engineering. Yea, the V-drive people. And they might still be able to supply parts. Anyone go this direction before? Hope you all have a good weekend....Al

alj

Have determined I need to change gearsets to the 1:1 gearset. Anyone know anything about these? How many teeth etc. Gearchange seems easier than trying to find some exotic 16.5" diameter x 22 or 23 pitch four blade prop and then hoping for the best.

cuda

Bill, I'm glad you chimed in because I didn't know the ratio, and I thought they were 16x26 props, but wasn't sure. Were these props the originals that came on the boat?

cuda

I think running "flat" is the nature of the beast.

Ted G

OH YEAH! My 402 runs so damn flat we have named it BOB. Big Old Brick. It runs the same at 2-8 on the drives and will not lift the bow. It runs 22 pitch Bravo 4 blades on TRS drives. We are running 56-58 at 4600 RPMS with warmed over 454's. But it will do that in 4 foot waves too

alj

Hey Cuda,
How's it going. Checked some old correspondence from the previous owner. Says the 375's (or whatever they were) turned about 4500 RPM. That is interesting I think. Any ideas on how to get the RPM range into the league that the F302 KAAMA's are at? I'd like to see at least 5200. Otherwise I'm probably going to need to go back to the drawing board on the engines. New cam to lower the peak HP range to below 5000RPM!???? I'm thinking that the gearing in the drives should be at the 1:1 ratio. Then go from there on the props. I wish someone at Formula that figured these beauties out in 1985 would still be around to tell me what they were doing and thinking back then.Any ideas guys? Hey cuda, can you check the plates on your drives to let me know what your ratio is? It's right after the serial number on the left side of the drive case. I'd be eternally grateful. I'm also going to be visiting in FLA this weekend. I'll be in Tampa but am thinking of running over to Lauderdale for a day or two. Any suggestions on shops to visit to check on used prop availability. I know BAM is in Lauderdale. Anyone else you can think of?

Waterfoul

Ramb here again.

Josh (perfect mix) and Alj. what if you guys swapped for the "fun of it" to try the ratios. Josh, if you are at 5200-5300 maybe you can pull the 8% overdrive and get more top end while adding some reeliability to engines??? at say 5000rpm? and Alj can verify the 1:1 works for him........ just a thought from an armchair quarterback......
afterall, ice will be forming in traverse city soon anyway

Ramb