Why Apache are so expensive?
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#312
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Carbon Fiber is a great product. Awesome for F1 cars, but does not make sense on hi-perf boats because it is so rigid. Best used on high stress points only I am told. Although I still wonder because it will shatter when under too much stress. I am not an expert, just give me a kevlar Apache resin bucket and I will go play in the rough!
They Bend a lot plus take some hits too while crashing waves...ever felt a boat mast shake a 20000 lbs boat so you donīt see clear...
Itīs just how you build em--if they break they are not built right for the purpose or made to have a limited lifetime.
Epoxy is the key...if you ainīt gonna use Epoxy as a resin but a vinyl/polyester you might forget it and save your money.
Even a normal FG mat boat will be a lot better using Epoxy as a resin, ok so itīs a Lot more hazardous than any other resin but still preferred IMO.
Not Many boatbuilders have the facilities/equipment to be safe handling/repairing Epoxy resin.
Iīd say they are almost extint even globally.
some info
Now here might be one of the reasons why None of the old Apache crew isnīt so keen on building new ones...now Mark, from Fort Myers..fill us in
Last edited by MikeyFIN; 10-31-2007 at 07:19 AM.
#313
Geronimo36
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OuterLimits is currently making Epoxy post cured carbon fiber laminents..
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How do you explain sailboat masts made of CF then ?
They Bend a lot plus take some hits too while crashing waves...ever felt a boat mast shake a 20000 lbs boat so you donīt see clear...
Itīs just how you build em--if they break they are not built right for the purpose or made to have a limited lifetime.
Epoxy is the key...if you ainīt gonna use Epoxy as a resin but a vinyl/polyester you might forget it and save your money.
Even a normal FG mat boat will be a lot better using Epoxy as a resin, ok so itīs a Lot more hazardous than any other resin but still preferred IMO.
Not Many boatbuilders have the facilities/equipment to be safe handling/repairing Epoxy resin.
Iīd say they are almost extint even globally.
some info
Now here might be one of the reasons why None of the old Apache crew isnīt so keen on building new ones...now Mark, from Fort Myers..fill us in
They Bend a lot plus take some hits too while crashing waves...ever felt a boat mast shake a 20000 lbs boat so you donīt see clear...
Itīs just how you build em--if they break they are not built right for the purpose or made to have a limited lifetime.
Epoxy is the key...if you ainīt gonna use Epoxy as a resin but a vinyl/polyester you might forget it and save your money.
Even a normal FG mat boat will be a lot better using Epoxy as a resin, ok so itīs a Lot more hazardous than any other resin but still preferred IMO.
Not Many boatbuilders have the facilities/equipment to be safe handling/repairing Epoxy resin.
Iīd say they are almost extint even globally.
some info
Now here might be one of the reasons why None of the old Apache crew isnīt so keen on building new ones...now Mark, from Fort Myers..fill us in
BTW - I have seen numerous sail boat masts snap like twigs during the cup races - and I hardly watch any coverage of it. Sailboats don't pound waves at 80+ mph. The weight advantage makes good sence on a sailboat.
F1 rear wings have been set up to flex. And a number of guys hit the fence as a result. It was actually a brilliant idea, but very dangerous. Todays CF strong suit is light weight rigidity IMO.
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You got that right...thereīs a better market of doing normal commodities than boats.
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As I said, I'm not an expert. Nor-tec told me they only use it in high-stress structural connections because the boats turn out to bee too rigid with no real flex (if built to last) and end up beating the hell out of you. I'd like to think Nor-tec knows what they are talking about. It seems to be more about rigidity than possibility. You can lap it up, but do you want to get beat up? I hope to own an Apache some day. I want the Kevlar resin bucket. No sense owning one without pounding the waves.
Was Apache the only one using 100% Epoxy (at least in their raceboats and workboats) if yes then no need to carry the conversation further, correct me here too If Iīm mistaken by all the hoopla of Apache and how and with what they are built with ?
You can make any composite stupendously stiff (and brittle) or right. IMO, people can make oiltankers/cruisers/airplane fuesealages/wings etc flex/resilience the proper amount and thereīs programs for helping out too.
IMO the only object is the cost and the fact people believe in their assumptions and doesnīt want to evolve but stick to the tried and true methods..just like Blowers vs. Turboīs in boats or SSMīs vs Surface Drives.
Regarding a Kevlar "resin buckets", well back then it was thought to be ok and even now economically thinking.
But Epoxy is way more tolerant to flex (stiffnes strength) than any other resin and you can using the right (Fiberglass)mat and Epoxy get to 2% within the weight of any CF composite boat but have tripled the stiffness strenght which is a measure of not how stiff something is but how it holds up to deformation (flex) before breaking.
Actually using 100% Kevlar and then slapping it up with "normal" resin is kinda like trying to glue glass together when not done right same goes for 100% CF.
Other mats have to be used as a protective layer if Kevlar or CF is used against scratching etc if the XXX is made to last.
Kevlar also detoriates fast getting exposed to UV-rays.
I have a hard time thinking a similar sized boat with lesser weight canīt be a wavebuster/perform better.
In every form of racing people tend to make things as light as possible despite the conditions. Itīs IMO up to the operetor to know ones limits.
BTW - I have seen numerous sail boat masts snap like twigs during the cup races - and I hardly watch any coverage of it. Sailboats don't pound waves at 80+ mph. The weight advantage makes good sence on a sailboat.
F1 rear wings have been set up to flex. And a number of guys hit the fence as a result. It was actually a brilliant idea, but very dangerous. Todays CF strong suit is light weight rigidity IMO.
F1 rear wings have been set up to flex. And a number of guys hit the fence as a result. It was actually a brilliant idea, but very dangerous. Todays CF strong suit is light weight rigidity IMO.
A failure with CF composites usually has to do with improper handling/build/structural error therefore backyard builders (thatīs what boatbuilders are compared to other industries) shy away from CF.
The weight advantage is good and bad, too much weight downlow or high and it becomes a pendelum on a sailboat.
Try rock a sailboat without a mast and with one...
Itīs all about balance like in a powerboat too and I believe a properly balanced lighter boat with same size will outperform the heavier one in almost any condition a human can take.
Regarding F1 wings yes they are made to flex as much as the rules permit...also you see them break (for whatever reason) at 200mph when the limits are reached and yes itīs dangerous. Thats motorsport and thats what the guys get paid for, taking (calculated) risks with their lives.
So is crossing a road by foot.
CFīs strong suit have always been tensile strength/lbs which is only one of the factors of stiffnes strength.
Would I use CF for a boat...well not without Epoxy, howabout Kevlar or any other mat or a mixmat of these two mentioned..
No, if money wasnīt an object.
And we havenīt talked about honeycombs as bulkheads/stiffeners yet either..and wonīt in this thread as No Apache ainīt built with them.
And donīt take this as bashing Iīm interested in how the A41īs and 47 especially racers are built and do love both of them for what they are.
But I also love other raceboats and it interests me how they are built.
Last edited by MikeyFIN; 10-31-2007 at 02:43 PM.
#319
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Man, this thread has made for some good reading! Plus I got to laugh a bunch!
Can't wait to see ya next year Lucy! By any chance, will you & Mark be in Key West?
Can't wait to see ya next year Lucy! By any chance, will you & Mark be in Key West?
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Well guess my Apache its race boat construction and use of exotic materials just furthers the mystic of these boats.
When its all said and done I am very pleasd with it and for the first time dont find myself looking through the classifieds looking for something else.
My nonswimming girl friend dosent get down on the cockpit floor when we hit ruff water as she did in my last boat.
One of my favorite times in the boat was with her 2 year old grandson clinging to her like a vine in the front bolster in sitting position running up the StClair river at a time when it was a bit rough and the big crusers from up north were heading south an the ones from the south heading north. The boat handled it all even into the mouth of Lake Huron and a ways beyound impeckably. The boy telling her grandmother. "I scaired granny I verry scared but fun." He is 3 years older now and says boat , dave , water , truck boat water fun Dave. Of course today his sententces are a bit
better. From that day on he has always helped me work on the boat although much of the time was more of a hindrance. Much as my grandfather did with me. Oh my I have probably created another boat freak.
When its all said and done I am very pleasd with it and for the first time dont find myself looking through the classifieds looking for something else.
My nonswimming girl friend dosent get down on the cockpit floor when we hit ruff water as she did in my last boat.
One of my favorite times in the boat was with her 2 year old grandson clinging to her like a vine in the front bolster in sitting position running up the StClair river at a time when it was a bit rough and the big crusers from up north were heading south an the ones from the south heading north. The boat handled it all even into the mouth of Lake Huron and a ways beyound impeckably. The boy telling her grandmother. "I scaired granny I verry scared but fun." He is 3 years older now and says boat , dave , water , truck boat water fun Dave. Of course today his sententces are a bit
better. From that day on he has always helped me work on the boat although much of the time was more of a hindrance. Much as my grandfather did with me. Oh my I have probably created another boat freak.