Why Apache are so expensive?
10-15-2007, 11:30 AM
#61
Registered User
I wouldn't say they're "expensive". There's one in the classifieds for $59K that could be bought for less. If you were to buy that boat, repaint it, replace the drives with 6's, toss in a set of nice 850's and completely paint/re-rig and reupholster it, you'd probably have a $150K boat. Problem is, you'd have spent $250 on the package.
It's tough to describe why anyone would want a 41. A Topgun is just "easier". You can pull it with an F350, it will fit in just about any rach storage facility and you can run nicely on Bravos and N/A power. The Apache (pleasure) needs a bigger truck to tow and expensive power to move it. And, lots more gas. You can pull into alot of docks and tie up next to 3 or 4 other Topguns on many days. If you wanted to tie up next to 3 or 4 Apache's, it would take weeks of coordination and some long-distance tows.
After it's all said and done, there's that Apache ride. I went from my 1st 41 into a 46 Cougar. I sold it 6 months later and bought another 41. The Cougar was nice but had nothing on the 41 in sloppy water.
It's tough to describe why anyone would want a 41. A Topgun is just "easier". You can pull it with an F350, it will fit in just about any rach storage facility and you can run nicely on Bravos and N/A power. The Apache (pleasure) needs a bigger truck to tow and expensive power to move it. And, lots more gas. You can pull into alot of docks and tie up next to 3 or 4 other Topguns on many days. If you wanted to tie up next to 3 or 4 Apache's, it would take weeks of coordination and some long-distance tows.
After it's all said and done, there's that Apache ride. I went from my 1st 41 into a 46 Cougar. I sold it 6 months later and bought another 41. The Cougar was nice but had nothing on the 41 in sloppy water.
Charter Member
10-15-2007, 12:24 PM
#64
Registered User
10-15-2007, 12:50 PM
#65
Registered
I don't think we're comparing apples to apples.... First, Don didn't even own cig back when Apache was started... Back then the Apaches were dominating the scene and there were a heck of a lot less made... If Cigarette folded like Apache did I'm sure they would be just as valuable.
Kevlar flatdecks and TGs could be bought at the same timeline, also LS Kevlar Scarabs.
Apaches weīre dominating the (race)scene at the time ?
Where ?
Not internationally so I say itīs the bad boy image which sells. Not the True racing pedigree.
LS Scarabs were the last Americans with some International pedigree at the time, Cigarette before that (because of Carlo Bonomi).
Apaches are a novelty item and people pay money for that.... Prices are set by the sellers and buyers, sometimes they're not in line but the bottom line is although these boats are old they hold their value (in some cases increase value) better than others. BTW, Cigs still hold value better than most brands but you can't go out and by an Apache today... You can buy a McManus Apache but it's not the same company...
But you canīt buy a Kevlar 377 LS Scarab even if you wanted to either not even a copy of one brand new. Also I think boats like Dry Martini will command a price because of their history and Raceboats with a proven history.
Now I might ask when thereīs reportedly some 75+ 41īs made how many 377īs or 38 LS Sacarabs are made not even half of that I believe ?
Sutphen 39īs even less?
Now thereīs some novelty...
This of course is my opinion and also the reason I would pay a little more to own an Apache, more than any other boat... I didn't want to pay the membership fee for the "Outerlimits Club" because I don't like them as much....
Might be that because some of the key players still are in the boatbuilding business Apaches are so popular but Iīd say it mainly has to do with Don Aronows and Ben Kramers shady side.
10-15-2007, 01:05 PM
#66
Registered User
Back in the mid-80's, there was nothing like the Apache 41. Cig was just out with their replacement for the 36, the 38SE. It was no way near the finish or equipment of the Apache. You couldn't buy a 41 with 330's and TRS. You got 650's on 3's as base power. You also got a fully loaded boat built with the best stuff. You didn't see things like the Italian-made billet cleats and things like that. By the late 80's there were more than a few bigger dealers that had plenty of Topgunson the lot. If you wanted an Apache, you ordered it and waited for it. Today, there are more than a few pure-custom builders out there. Back then, it was only Apache.
As far as Sutphen and some of the others, they still didn't build boats with either the style or the quality of the Apache.
If you want an LS Scarab--- http://www.teamscarab.com/
As far as Sutphen and some of the others, they still didn't build boats with either the style or the quality of the Apache.
If you want an LS Scarab--- http://www.teamscarab.com/
10-15-2007, 01:08 PM
#67
Registered
Based on a 308...and almost a carbon copy in looks.
The 288 engine is a debored version of one added with huffers and not much else being mainly a tesbed for F40 as it never ran a race , it was supposed to be a Gr.B Rally car but became a poodle with A/C etc luxuries IMO.
The F40 is the true Gem of the 80īs and a pure racecar that was made for the street and was many years later raced with success by privateers ..just like the 365/GTB which is my favourite of the marque.
I agree on the looks of a 288 but not the performance, A L-88 would take it down like Alexander Karelin would take down a midget and a ZR-1 would give any 288 GTO a run for itīs money in acceleration and top speed.
*The L-88 still has the GT-class top speed record at Mulsanne and could Not be optioned with a radio or a/c or a heater...but a 427 that could rip the innards of any "exotic" coming in itīs way.
Remember at LeMans Corvette has always been more of a crowd favourite than Ferrari....
But still a 288 makes me think of Tom Selleck and all that...
Now Ben prolly imitated Tom too with those German pornstar/gay moustaches
10-15-2007, 01:13 PM
#68
JC Performance Engines
Gold Member
You think the 288GTO is one of the most beautiful Ferrari's ever, cuz that's what you crazed when you were younger... just like you probably drooled on the apaches's at the same era. Nothing wrong w/ that... i agree.
But if i see a 1960s GTO... wow.
Same w/ classic cars... all about teen lust.
10-15-2007, 01:34 PM
#70
Registered
Back in the mid-80's, there was nothing like the Apache 41. Cig was just out with their replacement for the 36, the 38SE. It was no way near the finish or equipment of the Apache. You couldn't buy a 41 with 330's and TRS. You got 650's on 3's as base power. You also got a fully loaded boat built with the best stuff. You didn't see things like the Italian-made billet cleats and things like that. By the late 80's there were more than a few bigger dealers that had plenty of Topgunson the lot. If you wanted an Apache, you ordered it and waited for it. Today, there are more than a few pure-custom builders out there. Back then, it was only Apache.
As far as Sutphen and some of the others, they still didn't build boats with either the style or the quality of the Apache.
If you want an LS Scarab--- http://www.teamscarab.com/
As far as Sutphen and some of the others, they still didn't build boats with either the style or the quality of the Apache.
If you want an LS Scarab--- http://www.teamscarab.com/
A full kevlar and the works 377 or anything, You must mean domestic?
Sure there was you just had to dig it up just like nowadays if you want a something custom made and wait for it...LS wasnīt known for fast deliveries either but custom only.
I think LS was a lot harder to get convinced to to build a boat for you than Kramer at the time. He didnīt need to make any noise of himself.
Now italian made billet cleats...
I wouldnīt touch them with a stick..or trust them for the matter Italians and all the southern europeans are generally the laughing stock when it comes to quality in manufacturing in Europe.
Style and Opera is their forte not craftmanship
IMO Italians are good at metal foundry especially aluminum and machining but when it comes to billet Iīd look elsewhere although Iīm quite alone even with admitting they are good at even that.
Regarding Sutphens well guess nobody asked them to build a "high tech" boat..surely the skill is there and well the style, thats a personal thing.
The bottom in a Sutphen has all that Apache has and maybe then some IMO.
I know the website is up for Teamscarab ..but try to order one...
Nocando since a few years back and the latest news on the site is over 4yrs old, ask MikeJ here for further details as heīs the only one here you might get some info regarding LS/Team Scarab.
Besides LS is over 70...
Regarding a brand new 41 Apache...look at Saber or the new Papache at Pantera so sure you can get one or close enough as possible and theres also McManus.
Last edited by MikeyFIN; 10-15-2007 at 01:46 PM.
