Favorite Offshore 25ft and smaller?
09-22-2008, 04:11 PM
#101
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Ok so youre willing to say that because Im "from California" I cant discern between bling and good components? - Would your opinion change if I were from Chicago or how about New Jersey? Whats really your point here- that you disagree with me, or dont like California?
Actually, I can tolerate California....it's the boats I can't stomach, although Lavey is probably the best of the bunch.
T2x
Last edited by T2x; 09-22-2008 at 04:14 PM.
09-23-2008, 03:43 PM
#103
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Missed your question in the heat of the discussion.
Top Bananna - thanks for the great info. Id like to discuss in more detail
You seem well connected and anybody really boating like yourself has good cred with me, and I LOVE the webber stacks in your avatar.
Thanks Dave, but the stacks are actually for a Kinsler Fuel Injection system, Webber’s are carburetors, but I appreciate your love of the old school look.
It seems as though you are an actual Manufacturer
…….. Well, yes and no. We are a manufacturer, but think of ourselves more in the line of a custom shop, similar to what Ruf would be for Porsche or Langlitz for motorcycle jackets. They are all Porsches and motorcycle jackets….BUT to each customer they are thought of as only their own.
We are a small company in numbers of annual units that we produce, but we never build the same boat twice, each is a product of the customer's imagination and our ability to bring their dreams to life for them. We have all new tooling (molds) and these new molds have the ability to have a boat vacuum bagged if the customer wants it. We have no overhead to speak of and no debt.
The people that do our layup are utilizing all the latest technology and have themselves won the Powerboat Magazine Quality Builder awards several times. The engines come from either Mercury or any of the better known custom shops out there. The outboards come from all the brands of outboard manufacturers once again, whatever the customer wants
Our goal is to make a product that is very high in quality and very unique to the market. We have no dealer network, but will work with any dealer who wants to build a custom boat for their customer. If the customer likes this classic look and wants whatever they want, we can do it. A 28 footer with a #6 and 1075 HP or twin 200 HP outboards on a bracket, just tell us and we will get it done. We are not trying to fit everyone into a size 40 overcoat
Dave, think along the lines of a real Shelby 427 Cobra or an early 911 Turbo. Those cars have a quality and beauty all of themselves. Strictly speaking, they have no new innovations or can claim no recent racing awards, yet they command an appreciation of their timeless designs.
Our typical buyer is someone who gets the “nostalgia” thing, but also wants to have the latest in layup and engine technology. They are people who have now or have had, the most exotic boats out there, but now want something simple, easy to run and dependable but still have that head turning appeal.
As far as the paint……if someone really wants to splash one of these designs with a modern paint job, it is their boat and they can have it any way they want. Not sure how it would look, think of a sweet 16 Donzi with a splash paint job.
If you are manufacturer today, you have to realize that EVERYONE builds a great boat, we are simply trying to offer our little niche to those that are interested.
It wasn’t clear from your postings…..are you a manufacturer? If so, what is it that you make?
You seem well connected and anybody really boating like yourself has good cred with me, and I LOVE the webber stacks in your avatar.
Thanks Dave, but the stacks are actually for a Kinsler Fuel Injection system, Webber’s are carburetors, but I appreciate your love of the old school look.
It seems as though you are an actual Manufacturer
…….. Well, yes and no. We are a manufacturer, but think of ourselves more in the line of a custom shop, similar to what Ruf would be for Porsche or Langlitz for motorcycle jackets. They are all Porsches and motorcycle jackets….BUT to each customer they are thought of as only their own.
We are a small company in numbers of annual units that we produce, but we never build the same boat twice, each is a product of the customer's imagination and our ability to bring their dreams to life for them. We have all new tooling (molds) and these new molds have the ability to have a boat vacuum bagged if the customer wants it. We have no overhead to speak of and no debt.
The people that do our layup are utilizing all the latest technology and have themselves won the Powerboat Magazine Quality Builder awards several times. The engines come from either Mercury or any of the better known custom shops out there. The outboards come from all the brands of outboard manufacturers once again, whatever the customer wants
Our goal is to make a product that is very high in quality and very unique to the market. We have no dealer network, but will work with any dealer who wants to build a custom boat for their customer. If the customer likes this classic look and wants whatever they want, we can do it. A 28 footer with a #6 and 1075 HP or twin 200 HP outboards on a bracket, just tell us and we will get it done. We are not trying to fit everyone into a size 40 overcoat
Dave, think along the lines of a real Shelby 427 Cobra or an early 911 Turbo. Those cars have a quality and beauty all of themselves. Strictly speaking, they have no new innovations or can claim no recent racing awards, yet they command an appreciation of their timeless designs.
Our typical buyer is someone who gets the “nostalgia” thing, but also wants to have the latest in layup and engine technology. They are people who have now or have had, the most exotic boats out there, but now want something simple, easy to run and dependable but still have that head turning appeal.
As far as the paint……if someone really wants to splash one of these designs with a modern paint job, it is their boat and they can have it any way they want. Not sure how it would look, think of a sweet 16 Donzi with a splash paint job.
If you are manufacturer today, you have to realize that EVERYONE builds a great boat, we are simply trying to offer our little niche to those that are interested.
It wasn’t clear from your postings…..are you a manufacturer? If so, what is it that you make?
Sorry so long to reply- I missed your question some how but i did answer it in a later post. Maybe caught up in the endless debate of "best boat heaven."
Kinsler FI- excellent I had an old Hondo pickel with kinsler, should have caught the lack of a base on each and thickness as a sign. Im looking to retrofit my 406 from a carb to injection this winter and have a thread out asking whats the way to go now.
No Im just a regular guy with a a lifetime of boating experience.
I also sold marine electronics exclusively (as in no fenders, other parts etc, just electronics) and have thousands of hours in all kinds of different boats power and sail.
Dad used to be K-boat racer at Parker as well so I have lots of flat v-drive seat time, and I pit crewed with Tim Capaldi when he was running "What a Tomato" before being killed right in front of me- so after that I backed off the alcohol and fuel type boats and am sticking with fun vs business of going fast.
I tend to lean toward new school, in terms of looks and hull tech, but as I said before it seems as though you are using the latest laminates and non bagged techniques which will end up with a very strong but certainly not the lightest hull out there.
As I said before its good you can customize power and it seems as though your hull can take it, so I get the part about why change what works- but my point yesterday was why not take advantage of every little bit of innovation in construction or hull design?
I completely get the market for a boat like you are selling but wouldnt go there myself as I have different tastes.
I also get hitting a price point and I know how difficult boats are to construct but I wouldnt have rigged that unit the way you did.
(shifter- cleats-and fixed motor mount instead of 2 axis actuated)
Preference for sure, and probably price point as another issue.
Lost of debate about what really constitutes innovation and what it means as evidence by the threads that flew by, also lots of emotion when it comes to style and pet brands. Ive actually owned 6 boats from 4 companies so I have more buying experience than many.
Notice how anyone debating tech or style gets pounded on in these threads?
Oh well its always fun debating, and in my opinion the fact that were all boaters means were a pretty exclusive club anyway.
Good luck, I wish you continued success in pleasure and race fields.
Uncle Dave
Laveycraft 2750 Ilmor-710
Laveycraft 20.8 Sebring 406 SB
Fleetwood nitrous toy hauler
Yamaha raptor 700/Kawi KFX 450
Nissan Titan
09-23-2008, 05:33 PM
#104
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The best West Coast cats are the Spectres, except those hulls came from Florida
IMHO the best West Coast builders were Ted and Ron Jones, and Rudy Ramos....... sadly those days are gone.
T2x
Last edited by T2x; 09-23-2008 at 05:37 PM.
09-24-2008, 01:39 PM
#106
Registered
Read em and weep!
Roktoy- here is a comprehensive breakdown of speed tests by brand stating- power, test date , testing authority, and of course radar/gps speed. It doesn't take into account props however but you can look at the dates and get archive info from the various testers magazine.
By comparing relative boat lengths with identical power you can get a good idea of a brands hull efficiency of course there's a chance a manufacturer could rig a light layup for a test, but I doubt it as the boats go on to be sold and a "race layup" is a huge liability in a product with a 10-20 year lifespan.
Before cries of "foul" start and the "chin music" begins flowing- you should know that when boat is featured in a magazine the actual vendor is almost always present for the "top speed test", and allowed to drive it themselves if not happy with the results. This stops the "bought and paid for BS" from the start.
Enjoy!
Uncle Dave
Laveycraft 2750 Ilmor-710
Laveycraft 20.8 Sebring 406 SB
Fleetwood nitrous toy hauler
Yamaha raptor 700
Nissan Titan
By comparing relative boat lengths with identical power you can get a good idea of a brands hull efficiency of course there's a chance a manufacturer could rig a light layup for a test, but I doubt it as the boats go on to be sold and a "race layup" is a huge liability in a product with a 10-20 year lifespan.
Before cries of "foul" start and the "chin music" begins flowing- you should know that when boat is featured in a magazine the actual vendor is almost always present for the "top speed test", and allowed to drive it themselves if not happy with the results. This stops the "bought and paid for BS" from the start.
Enjoy!
Uncle Dave
Laveycraft 2750 Ilmor-710
Laveycraft 20.8 Sebring 406 SB
Fleetwood nitrous toy hauler
Yamaha raptor 700
Nissan Titan
09-24-2008, 01:53 PM
#107
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Thanks for that sheet uncle dave, thats good information. Of course we all know it is more of a guide then a bible, regardless its still pretty cool and appears to be pretty accurate (again "pretty" accurate) to get an idea of efficiency like you said.
09-24-2008, 02:30 PM
#108
Registered
Where you stand.......
(remember 99% of the time the manufacturer is there and picked his prop)
The closer a "pet brand" is to pole position the more its now a "bible" , scientific, absolutely dead on, good work, I told you so, we're the best.....
Your threads being filled with a lot of opinions vs facts- next time somebody makes a claim like so and so are no good because they are from (pick one) its not built as well as X. do a little reading as to whose been winning in this decade. (also known as the decade of YOUR purchase) the data is out there and there are more than enough forums to check out what the problems are.
Uncle Dave
Laveycraft 2750 Ilmor-710
Laveycraft 20.8 Sebring 406 SB
Fleetwood nitrous toy hauler
Yamaha raptor 70
09-24-2008, 02:52 PM
#109
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Yeah so the way this works is that the further form pole position a pet brand is the more its a "guideline", bad day, something wrong etc. didn't buy enough adds........the music plays on and on.......
(remember 99% of the time the manufacturer is there and picked his prop)
The closer a "pet brand" is to pole position the more its now a "bible" , scientific, absolutely dead on, good work, I told you so, we're the best.....
Your threads being filled with a lot of opinions vs facts- next time somebody makes a claim like so and so are no good because they are from (pick one) its not built as well as X. do a little reading as to whose been winning in this decade. (also known as the decade of YOUR purchase) the data is out there and there are more than enough forums to check out what the problems are.
Uncle Dave
Laveycraft 2750 Ilmor-710
Laveycraft 20.8 Sebring 406 SB
Fleetwood nitrous toy hauler
Yamaha raptor 70
(remember 99% of the time the manufacturer is there and picked his prop)
The closer a "pet brand" is to pole position the more its now a "bible" , scientific, absolutely dead on, good work, I told you so, we're the best.....
Your threads being filled with a lot of opinions vs facts- next time somebody makes a claim like so and so are no good because they are from (pick one) its not built as well as X. do a little reading as to whose been winning in this decade. (also known as the decade of YOUR purchase) the data is out there and there are more than enough forums to check out what the problems are.
Uncle Dave
Laveycraft 2750 Ilmor-710
Laveycraft 20.8 Sebring 406 SB
Fleetwood nitrous toy hauler
Yamaha raptor 70
Questions:
1. What is " Pole Position?"
2. Who is the "we" in "we're the best"....
Regarding the listing you linked to.
1. What does this have to do with boats 25 feet and under?
2. Can you sort this nightmare by powerplant(s) so as to get "apples to apples" comparisons?
3. Does a boat attaining xxx mph in 1988 mean anything when compared to a more recent test with newer props and drives?
Aside from talking in circles about the validity or non validity of boat tests from....... West Coast Publications......What is your point?
T2x
09-24-2008, 03:51 PM
#110
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published tests
The post above is confusing....
Questions:
1. What is " Pole Position?"
2. Who is the "we" in "we're the best"....
Regarding the listing you linked to.
1. What does this have to do with boats 25 feet and under?
2. Can you sort this nightmare by powerplant(s) so as to get "apples to apples" comparisons?
3. Does a boat attaining xxx mph in 1988 mean anything when compared to a more recent test with newer props and drives?
Aside from talking in circles about the validity or non validity of boat tests from....... West Coast Publications......What is your point?
T2x
Questions:
1. What is " Pole Position?"
2. Who is the "we" in "we're the best"....
Regarding the listing you linked to.
1. What does this have to do with boats 25 feet and under?
2. Can you sort this nightmare by powerplant(s) so as to get "apples to apples" comparisons?
3. Does a boat attaining xxx mph in 1988 mean anything when compared to a more recent test with newer props and drives?
Aside from talking in circles about the validity or non validity of boat tests from....... West Coast Publications......What is your point?
T2x
1. "Pole Position" would be the fastest boat in a given length and hull type at a given power.
2. "we" as in whoevers "pet brand" does best (lots of hull types and sizes in here) will consider this data cannon going forward. Those at at the bottom of the scale will start contesting results
1. Whats it have to do with boats 25 feet and under? They are in here too! search around a little and see the top speeds of all the 24-25 ft boast with various power.
2. No you actually have to work it a tiny bit by going back and forth and do a search with ctrl-f then enter length or powerplant data and use the browsers internal search capability. An Excel sheet would be far better, but I'm not going to reenter all this data.
3. Yes - if you have more recents tests please post them.
Everyone benefits from the new tech though so all boats will go faster with newer tech, but this is an EXCELLENT baseline.
I'm very fair - I hate all journalists equally. East, West,North ,South and for the most part 90% of them I wouldn't pi$$ in their mouths if there teeth were on fire.
No ones talking in circles. Please post up whatever data you have from ANY magazines tests of 25 ft or less boats.
I dont care where the magazine is printed- no one will do a speed test without the manufacturer present. To do so risks losing ALL ad data. (and they are all greedy)
My point is to show published data tests on most everyones pet brands (including my own) to show them who's running what speed with what power.
Id love to see more data from anywhere.
Uncle Dave
Laveycraft 2750 Ilmor-710
Laveycraft 20.8 Sebring 406 SB
Fleetwood nitrous toy hauler
Yamaha raptor 700/Kawi KFX 450
Nissan Titan
