44 ft Endurance Diesel
12-31-2013, 09:49 AM
#131
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12-31-2013, 09:51 AM
#132
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Do you diesel guys think I,m going to need lift pumps on my 440 yanmar diesels ? I plumbed the fuel lines from the fuel tank to the filter all in # 10AN and from the filter to the mechanical injection pump its #8AN .
I was/am under the inpression that the mechanical injection pump pulls enought fuel ...
I was/am under the inpression that the mechanical injection pump pulls enought fuel ...
12-31-2013, 10:06 AM
#133
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12-31-2013, 10:39 AM
#134
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1) The Yanmars have fuel coolers on them not because in a boat like yours you need them, the Yanmars are designed to fit "general" marine applications and many, many cruisier or inboard boats have fuel tanks in the engine room. So the engine heat will help heat the fuel and in time that needs to be cooled off - hence the fuel coolers on your engines. Your tanks I'm guessing are forward of the engines, separated from the engine bay and lieing in the bilge right next to the water keeping the fuel cooler than outside air temp.
Hi Joe the Maretron fuel flow sensors have integrated temp sensors to accurately calculate fuel volume, I can see those temps on my display screens, typically in summer here the fuel starts out at 87 degrees ambient temp, and on a short ride will only go up 5-10 degrees depending on the volume of fuel in the tank, on long trips (hours) I have never seen the fuel coming from the tank get much over 100, The main tank in under the console area and yes separate from the engine compartment. It would be pretty easy to cut a fuel cooler into the water lines from the sea strainer to the water pumps and run the FASS return line through that, but not sure it is worth the effort when the water down here is over 80 most of the year. The manual gives specs on HP output, 315HP @ 77F, and 299HP @104F with a specific gravity of .84. So I might be down 5-10HP due to warmer fuel but in summer I don't think any amount of fuel coolers is going to get me fuel much less than 90F.
2) that FASS pump is the nuts, very cool idea but I see a problem. It's a gear style pump I think(maybe) judging where the motor is mounted, so the FASS pump can pump lots of GPM, you have the pressure cut down and therefore return most of the fuel right to the tank, I'll add heated fuel. A couple degrees adds up over time because if the Delta is 3 degrees as the whole fuel tank rises each cycle of the tank continues to raise by 3 deg until you reach whatever the max is.
It is a gear style pump, I will check the temps on all the lines next time I run it but I don't think it is adding that much temp to the system.
3) your Yanmar fuel filter assembly has the return built into it to de-airate the fuel that is why there is a return there. The fact that the return goes through the fuel cooler says to me that your engines uses less than 10% of the fuel delivered to the fuel filter housing the rest is bypassed right back tot he tank and is cooled. That filter hosuing has a mechanism in it to restrict fuel pressure to the fuel injection pump whether it is a spring and ball or a restrictive passage but something says "hey the engine won't use all this fuel and we need to send some back to the tank"
The engine fuel pump delivers a max of 21.9GPH, the engines use a max of 17.5GPH, at part load I imagine the ratios are similar here is the chart from Yanmar
4) I think first you need to have the fuel bypass from the FASS going through your feul cooler, I know in #1 I said the cooler is there for other applications but if there USE IT, the fuel returned from your engine is sooo small it could heat a think. The bulk of your return fuel is from your FASS pump and your filter housing, more from the FASS. Gear pumps under pressure will make heat so I think whatever advantage the cooler is giving you, you are negating it with the FASS pump - plump it through the coolers. YES your engine fuel consumption monitoring will be way off but what's the goal better performance or MPG?
5) to increase pressure to your fuel pump you need to bypass less from the filter housing, you can jack up the FASS pump untill it flows more fuel than the filter head can return which I think you are at that point because like you said "the primer is so hard you can't push it down" but you really need to look at where the pressure drop is? The fuel gauge on the FASS pump does tell you much you need to measure pressure on the line between the fuel filter housing and the fuel pump itself that is the pressure you need to raise.
In the 2nd photo in my other post the line painted grey 90 degrees from the inlet to the filter housing is a braided hose that goes directly to the injection pump. I guess I have to install some fittings on that line and see what the PSi is there?
6) the aneroid controls the amount of fuel delivered during acceleration, once you reach enough boost pressure the aneroid is rendered useless, it does nothing. The aneroid is a pollution control device so you don't make BIG smoke clouds trying to get on plane nothing more than that. What your showing me in that one picture looks like the plunger has a helix cut in it,a spiral curve - does it or is it just the angle? I'm guessing that plunger where it is threaded on the top goes through some type of diaphram and boost either raise or lowers it- correct? The taper again I'm guessing is what allows the amount of fuel to pass around, the smaller the dia the more fuel the larger dia the less fuel, I don't know that type so I'm guessing but that is what it looks like.
Yes it is an angle but the slope varies as you rotate, the position of that pin makes a huge difference in the getting on boost performance, at the most conservative position the engines rev to 1400 rpm and don't get enough fuel to make boost and get on plane, at the most aggressive setting they make boost relatively quickly and boat comes right up, with only a little puff of smoke. The toothed wheel in the picture sets the preload of the spring under the diaphragm and lets it get pushed down by less boost helping the boat get moving faster. I figured this stuff out from a Toyota Landcruiser forum in Australia. The taper acts on a rod that controls a lever in the pump that tells it how much fuel to deliver, more fuel sooner = more boost sooner = planing out quicker, you say it only affects acceleration but I have been able to get more RPMs out of the engines since messing with this. (100)
You need to understand when I worked on verisons of things like that it was a simple spring and diaphram connected to a rod that simpley did not let the fuel rack advance because the rack was on a yield link - LOL
Old DDA reference non turbo engines had a solid link bar between governor and "the rack", when they tried to first put some soke limiting on turbo DDA's the solid link bar became a spring loaded bar simpley to allow time for the turbo to spool up - basic yet worked OK.
Your insight is priceless and I appreciate you sharing your knowledge I am sure you have forgotten 10 times what I know! The big question is when are you coming to Miami to go for a ride!
Hi Joe the Maretron fuel flow sensors have integrated temp sensors to accurately calculate fuel volume, I can see those temps on my display screens, typically in summer here the fuel starts out at 87 degrees ambient temp, and on a short ride will only go up 5-10 degrees depending on the volume of fuel in the tank, on long trips (hours) I have never seen the fuel coming from the tank get much over 100, The main tank in under the console area and yes separate from the engine compartment. It would be pretty easy to cut a fuel cooler into the water lines from the sea strainer to the water pumps and run the FASS return line through that, but not sure it is worth the effort when the water down here is over 80 most of the year. The manual gives specs on HP output, 315HP @ 77F, and 299HP @104F with a specific gravity of .84. So I might be down 5-10HP due to warmer fuel but in summer I don't think any amount of fuel coolers is going to get me fuel much less than 90F.
2) that FASS pump is the nuts, very cool idea but I see a problem. It's a gear style pump I think(maybe) judging where the motor is mounted, so the FASS pump can pump lots of GPM, you have the pressure cut down and therefore return most of the fuel right to the tank, I'll add heated fuel. A couple degrees adds up over time because if the Delta is 3 degrees as the whole fuel tank rises each cycle of the tank continues to raise by 3 deg until you reach whatever the max is.
It is a gear style pump, I will check the temps on all the lines next time I run it but I don't think it is adding that much temp to the system.
3) your Yanmar fuel filter assembly has the return built into it to de-airate the fuel that is why there is a return there. The fact that the return goes through the fuel cooler says to me that your engines uses less than 10% of the fuel delivered to the fuel filter housing the rest is bypassed right back tot he tank and is cooled. That filter hosuing has a mechanism in it to restrict fuel pressure to the fuel injection pump whether it is a spring and ball or a restrictive passage but something says "hey the engine won't use all this fuel and we need to send some back to the tank"
The engine fuel pump delivers a max of 21.9GPH, the engines use a max of 17.5GPH, at part load I imagine the ratios are similar here is the chart from Yanmar
4) I think first you need to have the fuel bypass from the FASS going through your feul cooler, I know in #1 I said the cooler is there for other applications but if there USE IT, the fuel returned from your engine is sooo small it could heat a think. The bulk of your return fuel is from your FASS pump and your filter housing, more from the FASS. Gear pumps under pressure will make heat so I think whatever advantage the cooler is giving you, you are negating it with the FASS pump - plump it through the coolers. YES your engine fuel consumption monitoring will be way off but what's the goal better performance or MPG?
5) to increase pressure to your fuel pump you need to bypass less from the filter housing, you can jack up the FASS pump untill it flows more fuel than the filter head can return which I think you are at that point because like you said "the primer is so hard you can't push it down" but you really need to look at where the pressure drop is? The fuel gauge on the FASS pump does tell you much you need to measure pressure on the line between the fuel filter housing and the fuel pump itself that is the pressure you need to raise.
In the 2nd photo in my other post the line painted grey 90 degrees from the inlet to the filter housing is a braided hose that goes directly to the injection pump. I guess I have to install some fittings on that line and see what the PSi is there?
6) the aneroid controls the amount of fuel delivered during acceleration, once you reach enough boost pressure the aneroid is rendered useless, it does nothing. The aneroid is a pollution control device so you don't make BIG smoke clouds trying to get on plane nothing more than that. What your showing me in that one picture looks like the plunger has a helix cut in it,a spiral curve - does it or is it just the angle? I'm guessing that plunger where it is threaded on the top goes through some type of diaphram and boost either raise or lowers it- correct? The taper again I'm guessing is what allows the amount of fuel to pass around, the smaller the dia the more fuel the larger dia the less fuel, I don't know that type so I'm guessing but that is what it looks like.
Yes it is an angle but the slope varies as you rotate, the position of that pin makes a huge difference in the getting on boost performance, at the most conservative position the engines rev to 1400 rpm and don't get enough fuel to make boost and get on plane, at the most aggressive setting they make boost relatively quickly and boat comes right up, with only a little puff of smoke. The toothed wheel in the picture sets the preload of the spring under the diaphragm and lets it get pushed down by less boost helping the boat get moving faster. I figured this stuff out from a Toyota Landcruiser forum in Australia. The taper acts on a rod that controls a lever in the pump that tells it how much fuel to deliver, more fuel sooner = more boost sooner = planing out quicker, you say it only affects acceleration but I have been able to get more RPMs out of the engines since messing with this. (100)
You need to understand when I worked on verisons of things like that it was a simple spring and diaphram connected to a rod that simpley did not let the fuel rack advance because the rack was on a yield link - LOL
Old DDA reference non turbo engines had a solid link bar between governor and "the rack", when they tried to first put some soke limiting on turbo DDA's the solid link bar became a spring loaded bar simpley to allow time for the turbo to spool up - basic yet worked OK.
Your insight is priceless and I appreciate you sharing your knowledge I am sure you have forgotten 10 times what I know! The big question is when are you coming to Miami to go for a ride!
12-31-2013, 10:41 AM
#135
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12-31-2013, 10:47 AM
#136
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12-31-2013, 10:57 AM
#137
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So the helix has a rod travel along it to advance fuel so that's why you want the helix to be further up to allow more fuel rod travel?
I do not believe that is a lapped part then, why don't buy a spare one and have someone just grind it further up for you, that would be very easy to test? You want the distance from the flat to the helix which your measuring to be greater - correct?
So now you return 4 galllons and hour to the tank correct?
The fuel coolers your probably right you have 80+ deg water! Again if you had an old Post, Ocean, even Hatteras sport fih the fuel tanks were coomon to the engine room so after a full day or running the engine heat allow heats up the fuel, forget that the DDA's push all the return fuel through the cylinder heads so that adds lots of heat. Maintaining at 100 is probably the best you can do.
I do not believe that is a lapped part then, why don't buy a spare one and have someone just grind it further up for you, that would be very easy to test? You want the distance from the flat to the helix which your measuring to be greater - correct?
So now you return 4 galllons and hour to the tank correct?
The fuel coolers your probably right you have 80+ deg water! Again if you had an old Post, Ocean, even Hatteras sport fih the fuel tanks were coomon to the engine room so after a full day or running the engine heat allow heats up the fuel, forget that the DDA's push all the return fuel through the cylinder heads so that adds lots of heat. Maintaining at 100 is probably the best you can do.
Last edited by HabanaJoe; 12-31-2013 at 11:03 AM.
12-31-2013, 11:25 AM
#138
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So the helix has a rod travel along it to advance fuel so that's why you want the helix to be further up to allow more fuel rod travel?
I do not believe that is a lapped part then, why don't buy a spare one and have someone just grind it further up for you, that would be very easy to test? You want the distance from the flat to the helix which your measuring to be greater - correct?
So now you return 4 galllons and hour to the tank correct?
I do not believe that is a lapped part then, why don't buy a spare one and have someone just grind it further up for you, that would be very easy to test? You want the distance from the flat to the helix which your measuring to be greater - correct?
So now you return 4 galllons and hour to the tank correct?
This is how the pin acts in the pump:
http://us1.webpublications.com.au/st...109344_3mg.jpg
More info here:
http://www.autospeed.com/cms/A_109344/article.html
I can't even get anybody from Denso on the phone so not sure if parts are available or not.
12-31-2013, 11:40 AM
#139
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