Why are high performance boats so expensive!
12-27-2012, 06:02 AM
#141
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Here they are in the race boat
Yes they are dry, I converted mine to wet. Here is a photo when they were in my 32' Velocity, It was a 100MPH ride but you had to clean the poop out of your drawers when you got thru. I have since added Whipple 3.3's for the 35' Ocean express the photo with the blowers.
Yes they are dry, I converted mine to wet. Here is a photo when they were in my 32' Velocity, It was a 100MPH ride but you had to clean the poop out of your drawers when you got thru. I have since added Whipple 3.3's for the 35' Ocean express the photo with the blowers.
I sold a pair of valve covers just like the ones in the second pic on ebay and now I wish I didn't. They would not clear for stock exhaust manifolds but then again that was a foolish notion anyway trying to use a full tall cover with anything other than performance exhaust, silly me.
Anyway the twins pic reminds me of another obvious point getting back to the thread. Most performance boats have twin engine installations which is twice the price for power. Get a boat with triples in it and the price includes an additional power package. Wow what a deal, I should buy boats with triples so I can get more engines for one price.
12-27-2012, 09:06 AM
#143
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If you are so informed with auto research then you should be fair enough to marine also. While a car will never see the detonation loads a boat always does the demands are not equal, thus, the engines are not equal.
As you said, "OEM engines are built cheap". Why is that? Of course it is because the analysts cut costs to max the bottom line so engineers have less budget to work with. Testing answers the eternal criticism of expense of "over engineering" against longevity for warranty claims sake. Everyone who builds, tests. Some think their tests are the best. The end user is the determining factor. Mercury has had a rash of claims on that premise even after all their testing.
To be fair in both worlds there are the budget line models and then the high end models. The budget line stuff in marine might compare with auto more so because those engines are built with cheap materials, just like the budget auto's. As I said before, the "performance" marine engines are more comparable with the highest end product that auto makes in their own performance flavor and bragging rites and you know those aren't cheap built either.
As you said, "OEM engines are built cheap". Why is that? Of course it is because the analysts cut costs to max the bottom line so engineers have less budget to work with. Testing answers the eternal criticism of expense of "over engineering" against longevity for warranty claims sake. Everyone who builds, tests. Some think their tests are the best. The end user is the determining factor. Mercury has had a rash of claims on that premise even after all their testing.
To be fair in both worlds there are the budget line models and then the high end models. The budget line stuff in marine might compare with auto more so because those engines are built with cheap materials, just like the budget auto's. As I said before, the "performance" marine engines are more comparable with the highest end product that auto makes in their own performance flavor and bragging rites and you know those aren't cheap built either.
I would never hesitate to take a crate LS7 engine, or equilvelent Ford engine and throw them in a boat with some minimal changes.
Just to note, here is just a touch what I found on youtube of just some of the testing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-LhVKIM8E8
Now I am taking nothing away from Merc, but I can promise you that the OE has some of the best testing facilities around, in which I would imagine Merc outsources some work to them as well.
In the end, all your paying Merc for is the name and a HP number associated with it - no more and no less. Anyone can throw money at an engine, overbuild it, and make a assload of power.
12-27-2012, 11:42 AM
#144
Crazy Energy
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For those of us in the marine industry, a common occurrence is to be questioned by customers about auto vs. marine parts. A common scenario is to have a customer ask for a replacement part for his boat. The part in question is a starter for a 350 cu.in. GM block. You give the customer a price, and he looks at you with a blank look on his face. He, then states (very angrily) "I can get one at the local auto retailer for $29.95".
In the marine industry, this little scenario occurs all the time. Many boaters are unaware of the difference between an automotive and a marine engine and their respective accessories. The most notable differences include the exhaust systems, the cooling systems, the electrical systems, and the fuel systems. Additionally, items such as heads and cams are usually different. For the purpose of this thread, we will only be hitting the highlights on select systems.
In regard to the cooling systems, one of the major differences is found in the water-circulating pump. This is especially noticeable when you have a raw water cooled engine. Unlike their automotive counterpart, a marine pump works in an open cooling system. This type of system is extremely corrosive to the pump. Therefore, the pump must be altered for longevity. A marine pump has a special ceramic seal, stainless steel backing plate, and a bronze impeller to resist corrosion. An automotive style pump, with its stamped steel impeller, would fail due to corrosion in a short time.
The electrical systems in a marine application are also extremely specialized. In an automobile, any gasoline vapors that accumulate will readily dissipate through the bottom of the engine compartment. However, a boat with its sealed engine compartment, does not have that luxury. Therefore, any spark could literally cause a boat to explode. All electrical components in a boat are either completely sealed or specially vented to prevent such a catastrophe. This includes the starter, alternator, distributor, and many other engine electrical components.
Carburetors typically have what is known in the industry as J type fuel bowls. These allow for the extreme vibration, pitching and yawl experienced on boats. This allows fuel to be drawn in extreme conditions and keeps fuel from being ejected from the carburetor barrels.
Heads and cams are set up for a completely different torque curve. A marine engine must develop most of its torque on the low end of throttle range. This allows for the ability to use a single gear transmission system. Think of it this way:
You get in your car
Start it up
Drive to the highway
Put your foot to the floor and hold it there for an hour
Its a little different, well for most of us.
Although we have only briefly touched on some of the differences between an automotive and marine application; hopefully, it will serve to remind us that there is a difference, and that the reasons for these differences need to be shared with our customers and friends in the boating community. Hopefully, when shared, this information can eliminate some of the "blank stares" in regards to parts, and maybe prevent some dangerous situations.
In the marine industry, this little scenario occurs all the time. Many boaters are unaware of the difference between an automotive and a marine engine and their respective accessories. The most notable differences include the exhaust systems, the cooling systems, the electrical systems, and the fuel systems. Additionally, items such as heads and cams are usually different. For the purpose of this thread, we will only be hitting the highlights on select systems.
In regard to the cooling systems, one of the major differences is found in the water-circulating pump. This is especially noticeable when you have a raw water cooled engine. Unlike their automotive counterpart, a marine pump works in an open cooling system. This type of system is extremely corrosive to the pump. Therefore, the pump must be altered for longevity. A marine pump has a special ceramic seal, stainless steel backing plate, and a bronze impeller to resist corrosion. An automotive style pump, with its stamped steel impeller, would fail due to corrosion in a short time.
The electrical systems in a marine application are also extremely specialized. In an automobile, any gasoline vapors that accumulate will readily dissipate through the bottom of the engine compartment. However, a boat with its sealed engine compartment, does not have that luxury. Therefore, any spark could literally cause a boat to explode. All electrical components in a boat are either completely sealed or specially vented to prevent such a catastrophe. This includes the starter, alternator, distributor, and many other engine electrical components.
Carburetors typically have what is known in the industry as J type fuel bowls. These allow for the extreme vibration, pitching and yawl experienced on boats. This allows fuel to be drawn in extreme conditions and keeps fuel from being ejected from the carburetor barrels.
Heads and cams are set up for a completely different torque curve. A marine engine must develop most of its torque on the low end of throttle range. This allows for the ability to use a single gear transmission system. Think of it this way:
You get in your car
Start it up
Drive to the highway
Put your foot to the floor and hold it there for an hour
Its a little different, well for most of us.
Although we have only briefly touched on some of the differences between an automotive and marine application; hopefully, it will serve to remind us that there is a difference, and that the reasons for these differences need to be shared with our customers and friends in the boating community. Hopefully, when shared, this information can eliminate some of the "blank stares" in regards to parts, and maybe prevent some dangerous situations.
12-27-2012, 12:03 PM
#145
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Just to note, here is just a touch what I found on youtube of just some of the testing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-LhVKIM8E8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-LhVKIM8E8
1 hour at 95% throttle isn't much of a torture test in my book.. Hell thats a trip home from the bar!
Granted, the load test is impressive and the deep freeze to high heat stuff is cool but has no use in the marine world.
12-27-2012, 12:09 PM
#146
[QUOTE=POWERPLAY J;3836694]
I have no idea what the dealer costs are in the HP motors, say, from 525 up. But I do know that in the recreational boat market, it's fairly easy to see the markups. I've seen a standard 5.7 MPI with B3 package vary Wildly from one brand to another. I've also seen an upgrade price of $5,000 and more just from a 5.0 MPI to a 5.7. If you go to buy these packages yourself, you'll see that buying a 5.7 versus a 5.0 is not an expensive upgrade.
Since the Mer racing engines are far lower volume, I'd expect there's a lot of play in pricing. I wouldn't think any manufacturer would leave out some additional margin in any of the motors. I'd want to make some more cash from a 525 to a 700 or more, not just "passing on the cost".
What I find amazing is how cheap some boats can be when offered without power. No matter what the hull is, they do seem to be very inexpensive relative to a new boat's cost.
Since the Mer racing engines are far lower volume, I'd expect there's a lot of play in pricing. I wouldn't think any manufacturer would leave out some additional margin in any of the motors. I'd want to make some more cash from a 525 to a 700 or more, not just "passing on the cost".
What I find amazing is how cheap some boats can be when offered without power. No matter what the hull is, they do seem to be very inexpensive relative to a new boat's cost.
12-27-2012, 02:03 PM
#147
Registered
One open contradiction is to say you take nothing from Merc and then state anyone can build power. There are some shoes here that you could never fill in your life time of playing catch up and I think some respect is due on your part with better chosen words. Maybe then I would not "miss your point" and you would not appear reckless.
I already stated I have training form all of the big three. Yes that training includes test standards for certain engine designs but I would not discuss that info on the level you came in on.
This is a boating website, you have a boat, show some support.
Happy boating to you.
Last edited by aquaforce; 12-27-2012 at 02:11 PM.
12-27-2012, 02:08 PM
#148
Registered
For those of us in the marine industry, a common occurrence is to be questioned by customers about auto vs. marine parts. A common scenario is to have a customer ask for a replacement part for his boat. The part in question is a starter for a 350 cu.in. GM block. You give the customer a price, and he looks at you with a blank look on his face. He, then states (very angrily) "I can get one at the local auto retailer for $29.95".
In the marine industry, this little scenario occurs all the time. Many boaters are unaware of the difference between an automotive and a marine engine and their respective accessories. The most notable differences include the exhaust systems, the cooling systems, the electrical systems, and the fuel systems. Additionally, items such as heads and cams are usually different. For the purpose of this thread, we will only be hitting the highlights on select systems.
In regard to the cooling systems, one of the major differences is found in the water-circulating pump. This is especially noticeable when you have a raw water cooled engine. Unlike their automotive counterpart, a marine pump works in an open cooling system. This type of system is extremely corrosive to the pump. Therefore, the pump must be altered for longevity. A marine pump has a special ceramic seal, stainless steel backing plate, and a bronze impeller to resist corrosion. An automotive style pump, with its stamped steel impeller, would fail due to corrosion in a short time.
The electrical systems in a marine application are also extremely specialized. In an automobile, any gasoline vapors that accumulate will readily dissipate through the bottom of the engine compartment. However, a boat with its sealed engine compartment, does not have that luxury. Therefore, any spark could literally cause a boat to explode. All electrical components in a boat are either completely sealed or specially vented to prevent such a catastrophe. This includes the starter, alternator, distributor, and many other engine electrical components.
Carburetors typically have what is known in the industry as J type fuel bowls. These allow for the extreme vibration, pitching and yawl experienced on boats. This allows fuel to be drawn in extreme conditions and keeps fuel from being ejected from the carburetor barrels.
Heads and cams are set up for a completely different torque curve. A marine engine must develop most of its torque on the low end of throttle range. This allows for the ability to use a single gear transmission system. Think of it this way:
You get in your car
Start it up
Drive to the highway
Put your foot to the floor and hold it there for an hour
Its a little different, well for most of us.
Although we have only briefly touched on some of the differences between an automotive and marine application; hopefully, it will serve to remind us that there is a difference, and that the reasons for these differences need to be shared with our customers and friends in the boating community. Hopefully, when shared, this information can eliminate some of the "blank stares" in regards to parts, and maybe prevent some dangerous situations.
In the marine industry, this little scenario occurs all the time. Many boaters are unaware of the difference between an automotive and a marine engine and their respective accessories. The most notable differences include the exhaust systems, the cooling systems, the electrical systems, and the fuel systems. Additionally, items such as heads and cams are usually different. For the purpose of this thread, we will only be hitting the highlights on select systems.
In regard to the cooling systems, one of the major differences is found in the water-circulating pump. This is especially noticeable when you have a raw water cooled engine. Unlike their automotive counterpart, a marine pump works in an open cooling system. This type of system is extremely corrosive to the pump. Therefore, the pump must be altered for longevity. A marine pump has a special ceramic seal, stainless steel backing plate, and a bronze impeller to resist corrosion. An automotive style pump, with its stamped steel impeller, would fail due to corrosion in a short time.
The electrical systems in a marine application are also extremely specialized. In an automobile, any gasoline vapors that accumulate will readily dissipate through the bottom of the engine compartment. However, a boat with its sealed engine compartment, does not have that luxury. Therefore, any spark could literally cause a boat to explode. All electrical components in a boat are either completely sealed or specially vented to prevent such a catastrophe. This includes the starter, alternator, distributor, and many other engine electrical components.
Carburetors typically have what is known in the industry as J type fuel bowls. These allow for the extreme vibration, pitching and yawl experienced on boats. This allows fuel to be drawn in extreme conditions and keeps fuel from being ejected from the carburetor barrels.
Heads and cams are set up for a completely different torque curve. A marine engine must develop most of its torque on the low end of throttle range. This allows for the ability to use a single gear transmission system. Think of it this way:
You get in your car
Start it up
Drive to the highway
Put your foot to the floor and hold it there for an hour
Its a little different, well for most of us.
Although we have only briefly touched on some of the differences between an automotive and marine application; hopefully, it will serve to remind us that there is a difference, and that the reasons for these differences need to be shared with our customers and friends in the boating community. Hopefully, when shared, this information can eliminate some of the "blank stares" in regards to parts, and maybe prevent some dangerous situations.
Good points. Good post.
12-27-2012, 05:03 PM
#149
Registered
I don`t know about anyone else but I used to beat the crap out of my sports cars way more than I do to any boat.
My boats mostly see about 3500-4K rpms and easy does it up there.... WOT every so often for a short period of time.
MY LS1 I used to romp on most stop lights and take it to the max on the highway.. mostly cause there wasn`t some weak ass Bravo based drive behind my Trans AM
My boats mostly see about 3500-4K rpms and easy does it up there.... WOT every so often for a short period of time.
MY LS1 I used to romp on most stop lights and take it to the max on the highway.. mostly cause there wasn`t some weak ass Bravo based drive behind my Trans AM
12-27-2012, 07:41 PM
#150
Gold Member
Gold MemberThread Starter
Merc predominately uses the Chevy product design and since, as I understand, Merc bought GM's BBC program out they have test data that they can use and build on that to apply stresses from water and displacement detonation, shock load etc. Running a test stand engine gives one set of data but the data loggers used in the actual racing event will give some of the best test data since it is gathered in an actual racing event of max stress levels and all the variations that go with it.
For those of us in the marine industry, a common occurrence is to be questioned by customers about auto vs. marine parts. A common scenario is to have a customer ask for a replacement part for his boat. The part in question is a starter for a 350 cu.in. GM block. You give the customer a price, and he looks at you with a blank look on his face. He, then states (very angrily) "I can get one at the local auto retailer for $29.95".
In the marine industry, this little scenario occurs all the time. Many boaters are unaware of the difference between an automotive and a marine engine and their respective accessories. The most notable differences include the exhaust systems, the cooling systems, the electrical systems, and the fuel systems. Additionally, items such as heads and cams are usually different. For the purpose of this thread, we will only be hitting the highlights on select systems.
In regard to the cooling systems, one of the major differences is found in the water-circulating pump. This is especially noticeable when you have a raw water cooled engine. Unlike their automotive counterpart, a marine pump works in an open cooling system. This type of system is extremely corrosive to the pump. Therefore, the pump must be altered for longevity. A marine pump has a special ceramic seal, stainless steel backing plate, and a bronze impeller to resist corrosion. An automotive style pump, with its stamped steel impeller, would fail due to corrosion in a short time.
The electrical systems in a marine application are also extremely specialized. In an automobile, any gasoline vapors that accumulate will readily dissipate through the bottom of the engine compartment. However, a boat with its sealed engine compartment, does not have that luxury. Therefore, any spark could literally cause a boat to explode. All electrical components in a boat are either completely sealed or specially vented to prevent such a catastrophe. This includes the starter, alternator, distributor, and many other engine electrical components.
Carburetors typically have what is known in the industry as J type fuel bowls. These allow for the extreme vibration, pitching and yawl experienced on boats. This allows fuel to be drawn in extreme conditions and keeps fuel from being ejected from the carburetor barrels.
Heads and cams are set up for a completely different torque curve. A marine engine must develop most of its torque on the low end of throttle range. This allows for the ability to use a single gear transmission system. Think of it this way:
You get in your car
Start it up
Drive to the highway
Put your foot to the floor and hold it there for an hour
Its a little different, well for most of us.
Although we have only briefly touched on some of the differences between an automotive and marine application; hopefully, it will serve to remind us that there is a difference, and that the reasons for these differences need to be shared with our customers and friends in the boating community. Hopefully, when shared, this information can eliminate some of the "blank stares" in regards to parts, and maybe prevent some dangerous situations.
In the marine industry, this little scenario occurs all the time. Many boaters are unaware of the difference between an automotive and a marine engine and their respective accessories. The most notable differences include the exhaust systems, the cooling systems, the electrical systems, and the fuel systems. Additionally, items such as heads and cams are usually different. For the purpose of this thread, we will only be hitting the highlights on select systems.
In regard to the cooling systems, one of the major differences is found in the water-circulating pump. This is especially noticeable when you have a raw water cooled engine. Unlike their automotive counterpart, a marine pump works in an open cooling system. This type of system is extremely corrosive to the pump. Therefore, the pump must be altered for longevity. A marine pump has a special ceramic seal, stainless steel backing plate, and a bronze impeller to resist corrosion. An automotive style pump, with its stamped steel impeller, would fail due to corrosion in a short time.
The electrical systems in a marine application are also extremely specialized. In an automobile, any gasoline vapors that accumulate will readily dissipate through the bottom of the engine compartment. However, a boat with its sealed engine compartment, does not have that luxury. Therefore, any spark could literally cause a boat to explode. All electrical components in a boat are either completely sealed or specially vented to prevent such a catastrophe. This includes the starter, alternator, distributor, and many other engine electrical components.
Carburetors typically have what is known in the industry as J type fuel bowls. These allow for the extreme vibration, pitching and yawl experienced on boats. This allows fuel to be drawn in extreme conditions and keeps fuel from being ejected from the carburetor barrels.
Heads and cams are set up for a completely different torque curve. A marine engine must develop most of its torque on the low end of throttle range. This allows for the ability to use a single gear transmission system. Think of it this way:
You get in your car
Start it up
Drive to the highway
Put your foot to the floor and hold it there for an hour
Its a little different, well for most of us.
Although we have only briefly touched on some of the differences between an automotive and marine application; hopefully, it will serve to remind us that there is a difference, and that the reasons for these differences need to be shared with our customers and friends in the boating community. Hopefully, when shared, this information can eliminate some of the "blank stares" in regards to parts, and maybe prevent some dangerous situations.
