SPACE SHUTTLE COLUMBIA - How and why the tragic accident happened.
02-01-2003, 03:51 PM
#51
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Why did the breakup happen:
From "TIME" today:
"There are three possible scenarios that explain this event.
The first, which I believe is the likeliest explanation, would be an aerodynamic structural breakup of the shuttle caused by it rolling at the wrong angle. Remember, after reentry, the shuttle is descending without power, which means astronauts at the controls can't compensate for a loss of attitude by using the engines, they can only do so using the flaps. And that's extremely hard. Astronauts describe piloting the shuttle on reentry as like trying to fly a brick with wings. It's very difficult to operate, and even more so to correct any problems.
A second explanation might be a loss of tiles leading to a burn-through. (The shuttle is covered with heat-resistant tiles to protect the craft and those inside it from burning up in the scorching temperatures caused by the friction of reentry.) But I think that explanation is unlikely, because the tile-loss would have had to have been quite substantial for that to become possible. You'll hear a lot in the next few days about things falling off the shuttle during liftoff. But it often happens that they lose a few tiles, and I'd be surprised if it happened on a scale that could make an accident of this type possible.
The last option is some kind of engine failure leading to fuel ignition. Although the main tanks are mostly empty, there should still be fuel left in the maneuvering tanks. But probably not enough for an explosion that could have caused this breakup."
The whole article is here:
http://www.time.com/time/nation/arti...418462,00.html
"There are three possible scenarios that explain this event.
The first, which I believe is the likeliest explanation, would be an aerodynamic structural breakup of the shuttle caused by it rolling at the wrong angle. Remember, after reentry, the shuttle is descending without power, which means astronauts at the controls can't compensate for a loss of attitude by using the engines, they can only do so using the flaps. And that's extremely hard. Astronauts describe piloting the shuttle on reentry as like trying to fly a brick with wings. It's very difficult to operate, and even more so to correct any problems.
A second explanation might be a loss of tiles leading to a burn-through. (The shuttle is covered with heat-resistant tiles to protect the craft and those inside it from burning up in the scorching temperatures caused by the friction of reentry.) But I think that explanation is unlikely, because the tile-loss would have had to have been quite substantial for that to become possible. You'll hear a lot in the next few days about things falling off the shuttle during liftoff. But it often happens that they lose a few tiles, and I'd be surprised if it happened on a scale that could make an accident of this type possible.
The last option is some kind of engine failure leading to fuel ignition. Although the main tanks are mostly empty, there should still be fuel left in the maneuvering tanks. But probably not enough for an explosion that could have caused this breakup."
The whole article is here:
http://www.time.com/time/nation/arti...418462,00.html
02-01-2003, 04:15 PM
#53
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Posts: n/a
ISS in serious problems
"Lets not forget that there is a crew abourd the space station w/o a ride home if the program is suspended. I believe they were due to come home in mid March."
The 3 astronauts on the ISS might have a serious problem...
Here's what "TIME" said today:
"Following the precedent of the Challenger disaster in 1986, it's unlikely that NASA will undertake any further shuttle missions or any other manned space flights for the next two years.
One immediate problem, though, is the International Space Station, which currently has a crew of three on board. They might consider one further flight to bring that crew home — the other option would be for them to return aboard a Russian Soyuz craft, which isn't the most comfortable or the safest ride.
Beyond that, however, the space station is likely to be left unoccupied for a long time.
NASA won't want to use the shuttle again until it can establish the cause of today's accident, and fix it. Now that we've lost two shuttles out of a fleet of five, it's even conceivable that the shuttle won't fly again.
The shuttle was built as a space truck, and then the International Space Station was built to give it something to do. Both programs are likely to suffer as a result of this disaster."
The 3 astronauts on the ISS might have a serious problem...
Here's what "TIME" said today:
"Following the precedent of the Challenger disaster in 1986, it's unlikely that NASA will undertake any further shuttle missions or any other manned space flights for the next two years.
One immediate problem, though, is the International Space Station, which currently has a crew of three on board. They might consider one further flight to bring that crew home — the other option would be for them to return aboard a Russian Soyuz craft, which isn't the most comfortable or the safest ride.
Beyond that, however, the space station is likely to be left unoccupied for a long time.
NASA won't want to use the shuttle again until it can establish the cause of today's accident, and fix it. Now that we've lost two shuttles out of a fleet of five, it's even conceivable that the shuttle won't fly again.
The shuttle was built as a space truck, and then the International Space Station was built to give it something to do. Both programs are likely to suffer as a result of this disaster."
02-01-2003, 05:10 PM
#56
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Okay, the insulation on the main tank is a foam similar to that crap you spray out of a can from Home Depot. I've seen it and touched it. It's harder than the canned foam, and it would hurt if I hit you in the head with a chunk of it.
So far we KNOW a hunk of it hit the left wing.
SURE does look like a tile failure on the left wing is the culprit. Sensors dropping signals, then tire temps and pressures rising, followed by a series of temp nodes dropping signals (per the NASA man on TV). I also heard him say the tire temp and pressures were RISING on the leftside main gear, not dropping.
<following paragraph is just one interpretation of what occurred>
Dislodged tile, break in insulation, burn hole in wing, melt I/O box or signal conditioner that was responsible for transmitting the signals that were dropping out, then structural wing damage and loss of stability. UGH.
I feel that nobody will ever know whether the damage was caused by the insulation, but it sure points to it...
As far as EVA, the question was answered very directly by NASA man. The EVA equipment present on the shuttle is designed only for limited EVA in the cargo bay in relation to payload maintenance. The suits are not designed for, nor are the personnel trained for, extended EVA to the UNDERSIDE of the vehicle. The only reasonable way to attempt such would involve tether to the mechanical cargo arm to get near the wing areas. The arm was not included in this launch since there were no tasks that required it on this mission (and they don't carry anything just for the heck of it). ALSO, if an inspection DID discover a tile failure, they still had no materials, tools, or parts to attempt any sort of bandage.
In MY mind, it still seems that someone could crawl around outside to look for damage. Obviously, I've not been there nor done that, but seems reasonable enough to me for them to be able to get to where they could LOOK at the dang wing.
If there was damage severe enough to SEE, then did they have enough fuel to redirect to the ISS where they could await a "fixit kit" from NASA?? All good questions.
As we see from the events of today, the future response to a liftoff impact may very well be quite different indeed.
I mean how much can a few "universal" tiles and a tile-cutting device weigh? Ten pounds? They could go find the damaged tiles, read the serial #s off the surrounding tiles and tell NASA what's missing or damaged. NASA could fax or email or "beam" or whatever the dimensions they need to cut a new tile to fit. Then glue her in and smear some magic miracle goop over it.
It would surely suck to know you had a bad wing tile and no way to fix it...
Do you guys remember the Mercury mission (cant remember the number) where the heat shield showed that it had gotten slightly out of position from the abrubt disconnect from the last rocket stage? They ended up leaving the retro rocket pack attached to the bottom during reentry in hopes that it would help keep the shield from coming loose. It got REAL hot for him during reentry. The astronaut had to sit there and listen to the chunks of retro rockets bouncing off the shield and spewing molten metal past the single window as it melted off the bottom of the shield - not knowing for sure if it was the retro pack OR parts of the capsule.
I don't care HOW routine it gets for us Joe public scums, these rocket jocks have still got big nads - even the women. You climb on a bottle rocket and blast off !
Prayers to the families of the lost astronauts.
NASA has done a good job of revamping after tragedies in the past. Let's hope they do so again. Be interesting to see what changes and modifications are done to the program.
So far we KNOW a hunk of it hit the left wing.
SURE does look like a tile failure on the left wing is the culprit. Sensors dropping signals, then tire temps and pressures rising, followed by a series of temp nodes dropping signals (per the NASA man on TV). I also heard him say the tire temp and pressures were RISING on the leftside main gear, not dropping.
<following paragraph is just one interpretation of what occurred>
Dislodged tile, break in insulation, burn hole in wing, melt I/O box or signal conditioner that was responsible for transmitting the signals that were dropping out, then structural wing damage and loss of stability. UGH.
I feel that nobody will ever know whether the damage was caused by the insulation, but it sure points to it...
As far as EVA, the question was answered very directly by NASA man. The EVA equipment present on the shuttle is designed only for limited EVA in the cargo bay in relation to payload maintenance. The suits are not designed for, nor are the personnel trained for, extended EVA to the UNDERSIDE of the vehicle. The only reasonable way to attempt such would involve tether to the mechanical cargo arm to get near the wing areas. The arm was not included in this launch since there were no tasks that required it on this mission (and they don't carry anything just for the heck of it). ALSO, if an inspection DID discover a tile failure, they still had no materials, tools, or parts to attempt any sort of bandage.
In MY mind, it still seems that someone could crawl around outside to look for damage. Obviously, I've not been there nor done that, but seems reasonable enough to me for them to be able to get to where they could LOOK at the dang wing.
If there was damage severe enough to SEE, then did they have enough fuel to redirect to the ISS where they could await a "fixit kit" from NASA?? All good questions.
As we see from the events of today, the future response to a liftoff impact may very well be quite different indeed.
I mean how much can a few "universal" tiles and a tile-cutting device weigh? Ten pounds? They could go find the damaged tiles, read the serial #s off the surrounding tiles and tell NASA what's missing or damaged. NASA could fax or email or "beam" or whatever the dimensions they need to cut a new tile to fit. Then glue her in and smear some magic miracle goop over it.
It would surely suck to know you had a bad wing tile and no way to fix it...
Do you guys remember the Mercury mission (cant remember the number) where the heat shield showed that it had gotten slightly out of position from the abrubt disconnect from the last rocket stage? They ended up leaving the retro rocket pack attached to the bottom during reentry in hopes that it would help keep the shield from coming loose. It got REAL hot for him during reentry. The astronaut had to sit there and listen to the chunks of retro rockets bouncing off the shield and spewing molten metal past the single window as it melted off the bottom of the shield - not knowing for sure if it was the retro pack OR parts of the capsule.
I don't care HOW routine it gets for us Joe public scums, these rocket jocks have still got big nads - even the women. You climb on a bottle rocket and blast off !
Prayers to the families of the lost astronauts.
NASA has done a good job of revamping after tragedies in the past. Let's hope they do so again. Be interesting to see what changes and modifications are done to the program.
02-01-2003, 05:19 PM
#57
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41
I seriously doubt it will ground the fleet for any length of time first off the Challenger disaster was Design/Human error.
This appears to be a much different case.
The problem I have with it is there are procedures in place for just such a launch incident with the Shuttle Landing in Africa. What NASA needs to do is a lot of HouseCleaning!
What I personally do not like is the fact that Flight control is in Texas at the Johnson Space center named after some worthless bastard president we had. It should be in Florida like it originally was.
I seriously doubt it will ground the fleet for any length of time first off the Challenger disaster was Design/Human error.
This appears to be a much different case.
The problem I have with it is there are procedures in place for just such a launch incident with the Shuttle Landing in Africa. What NASA needs to do is a lot of HouseCleaning!
What I personally do not like is the fact that Flight control is in Texas at the Johnson Space center named after some worthless bastard president we had. It should be in Florida like it originally was.
02-01-2003, 05:22 PM
#58
Registered
I also thought that Apache41s comments are out of line !
I thought i must be reading them wrong.....
It's bad enough we have to listen to this kind of crap from oure
"Fellow" Americans, but.....I sure as hell am not going to listen to it from outsiders !!!!!!!! Try to show a little respect !!!!!!
I thought i must be reading them wrong.....
It's bad enough we have to listen to this kind of crap from oure
"Fellow" Americans, but.....I sure as hell am not going to listen to it from outsiders !!!!!!!! Try to show a little respect !!!!!!
02-01-2003, 05:27 PM
#60
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Relax Bird Dog We were walking on the Moon and Raising a Russian Submarine from more than 3 miles down, Fighting a war while the Europeans were doing nothing!
