oil pressure problems from stock hardware
07-25-2008, 02:31 PM
#61
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This thread made me curious about something..
On a Gen V/Gen VI block, the fittings on the pan rails are plumbed for an oil cooler.. Why not run the cooler lines to these fittings, and remove the filter adapter housing, replace the threaded screw in adapter with one that takes a filter, add a relocator sandwich with lines, and mount the filter to the relocator lines..?
Richard
On a Gen V/Gen VI block, the fittings on the pan rails are plumbed for an oil cooler.. Why not run the cooler lines to these fittings, and remove the filter adapter housing, replace the threaded screw in adapter with one that takes a filter, add a relocator sandwich with lines, and mount the filter to the relocator lines..?
Richard
prob for the cooler? good question
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07-25-2008, 03:09 PM
#62
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Strip,
No, the cooler still gets flow from these lines on the rail. The unless the coolers will see a severe increase in pressure, it should not be an issue for the cooler. (I just had a cooler blow on the water fitting, as there was a weak spot in the housing/water fitting. I have since replaced my stock cooler with a big cooler from Hardin Marine/CP Perf. to remedy this.)
However, the out line from the block rail has a diverter valve in it that needs to be on the line.. If the line is used without the diverter valve, there will be no flow through the cooler.
In the situation I described above, the lines from the block have the correct diverter valve in the out line, and the return is open. Both are connected with factory fittings to the block, with the metal tube to the fittings inserted into high pressure Aeroquip oil hose with clamps and connected to the cooler with barbs and NPT brass fittings..
In essence, the flow is not changing in pattern, Cooler lines are being used for a cooler, and the filter is filtering from the filter pad.. There should be no effect on the system, as there is no change in flow, bypass valves, or other equipment...
R
No, the cooler still gets flow from these lines on the rail. The unless the coolers will see a severe increase in pressure, it should not be an issue for the cooler. (I just had a cooler blow on the water fitting, as there was a weak spot in the housing/water fitting. I have since replaced my stock cooler with a big cooler from Hardin Marine/CP Perf. to remedy this.)
However, the out line from the block rail has a diverter valve in it that needs to be on the line.. If the line is used without the diverter valve, there will be no flow through the cooler.
In the situation I described above, the lines from the block have the correct diverter valve in the out line, and the return is open. Both are connected with factory fittings to the block, with the metal tube to the fittings inserted into high pressure Aeroquip oil hose with clamps and connected to the cooler with barbs and NPT brass fittings..
In essence, the flow is not changing in pattern, Cooler lines are being used for a cooler, and the filter is filtering from the filter pad.. There should be no effect on the system, as there is no change in flow, bypass valves, or other equipment...
R
07-26-2008, 01:42 AM
#63
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Richard,your question is a good one,I just ran out to my shop and spent 20 minutes looking at my old gen 6 502 block trying to remember and see how the flow goes thru those fittings.
You could use those 2 fittings for a oil cooler supply and return line,you would need to drive a cup plug into the hole closest to the filter boss area,1/2 way in between the upper and lower oil gallery. The cup plug would force the oil to go thru the cooler,without it the areas under the the 2 pan rail cooler holes are connected (which is how they come stock).
Personally I can see 2 reasons NOT to use these fittings for a oil cooler (just my opinion here though). The thread size is only 3/8" npt which will result in most adapter fittings having a i.d. of around 3/8-7/16. You end up typically also needing to use 90 degree fittings of some sort to get away from the motor in this area and for bilge clearence/oil pan clearence,they will also be very restrictive since they will be starting out with the same 3/8" npt on one end. The second reason is typically it will be redundant,you would have a adapter going to hoses to a remote filter adapter then back then also a set of hoses going to your oil cooler and back. The more fittings/ you use,especially 90 degree ones,and hose,the more overall restriction you will creat and resulting pressure drop. Ideally you want to make your oil lines as short and simple as possible.
I might have said this earlier in this thread but just in case I didn't I'll tell this story again. When I first procharged my 502 i had taken the motor out of my boat and went thru it (it was only a few months old),swapped cylinder heads to merlins,changed out the factory j/e pistons with their low tension metric ring garbage,better gaskets etc. I dropped my motor off as a long block at the shop I bought my procharger from and had them finish dressing it out and installing it in the boat. When I started driving it I noticed the oil pressure wasn't all too spectacular (35-50 psi at wot depending on oil temp). Idle oil pressure was good,it was more top end pressure then anything. I had built the short block myself and was meticulous ( I'm a licensed auto tech and have rebuilt many engines) so I was pretty sure I did not make any mistakes. I questioned the shop that did the motor install/rigging for the procharger,he said I probably screwed up the clearences or something,I did not buy into it. I decided to tear out all the oil lines and stock cooler and upgrade everything while it was still in the boat. This shop had installed all kinds of frickin hoses and adapters to relocate the oil cooler and filter mount,it was a abortion of factory adapters mixed with T&D hoses. There was at least 15 feet of oil hose in my engine compartment. Some of the factory adapter fittings (as you can see in my earlier pics in this thread) had a i.d. of only .390 plus many nasty 90 degree bends. I reduced this to about 4 feet of -12 an hose,a billet block adapter on factory filter block with full flow fittings,1 hose going to billet filter housing block from engine block,1 hose going from filter housing to cooler and 1 hose returning from the cooler to the block adapter. I suddenly had 60-65 psi of oil pressure almost all the time (std volume/ pressure pump),this garbage was restricing the hell out of the flow.
Back to what you want to do,I wouldn't do it mainly because you'll end up with restricive fittings due to the 3/8 pipe thread size of the holes and the requirement of turning quickily in that area BUT if you do:
1. Remember to plug the first hole closest to the filter boss 1/2 way up inside so it makes the oil go thru the cooler holes by dividing the upper and lower passages.
2. Be choosy in your fitting selection to avoid creating extra restrictions ( you could use 3/8 to -10 adapters and bore them out slightly) the use full flow sweeping -10 90's to get away from the block.
3. The only way I would consider this is if you still have a stock,std output pump,other wise you will just end up forcing the pump bypass ball open all the time which will aereate your oil and accelerate wear on the distributer drive gear plus it could possibly open the bypass valves in the filter boss area.
Let us know what you choose to do and how it works out for you.
BTW -I'm still using the same oil lines and cooler I switched to 7 years ago even with my curent 540 (different block adapter though),
Smitty
You could use those 2 fittings for a oil cooler supply and return line,you would need to drive a cup plug into the hole closest to the filter boss area,1/2 way in between the upper and lower oil gallery. The cup plug would force the oil to go thru the cooler,without it the areas under the the 2 pan rail cooler holes are connected (which is how they come stock).
Personally I can see 2 reasons NOT to use these fittings for a oil cooler (just my opinion here though). The thread size is only 3/8" npt which will result in most adapter fittings having a i.d. of around 3/8-7/16. You end up typically also needing to use 90 degree fittings of some sort to get away from the motor in this area and for bilge clearence/oil pan clearence,they will also be very restrictive since they will be starting out with the same 3/8" npt on one end. The second reason is typically it will be redundant,you would have a adapter going to hoses to a remote filter adapter then back then also a set of hoses going to your oil cooler and back. The more fittings/ you use,especially 90 degree ones,and hose,the more overall restriction you will creat and resulting pressure drop. Ideally you want to make your oil lines as short and simple as possible.
I might have said this earlier in this thread but just in case I didn't I'll tell this story again. When I first procharged my 502 i had taken the motor out of my boat and went thru it (it was only a few months old),swapped cylinder heads to merlins,changed out the factory j/e pistons with their low tension metric ring garbage,better gaskets etc. I dropped my motor off as a long block at the shop I bought my procharger from and had them finish dressing it out and installing it in the boat. When I started driving it I noticed the oil pressure wasn't all too spectacular (35-50 psi at wot depending on oil temp). Idle oil pressure was good,it was more top end pressure then anything. I had built the short block myself and was meticulous ( I'm a licensed auto tech and have rebuilt many engines) so I was pretty sure I did not make any mistakes. I questioned the shop that did the motor install/rigging for the procharger,he said I probably screwed up the clearences or something,I did not buy into it. I decided to tear out all the oil lines and stock cooler and upgrade everything while it was still in the boat. This shop had installed all kinds of frickin hoses and adapters to relocate the oil cooler and filter mount,it was a abortion of factory adapters mixed with T&D hoses. There was at least 15 feet of oil hose in my engine compartment. Some of the factory adapter fittings (as you can see in my earlier pics in this thread) had a i.d. of only .390 plus many nasty 90 degree bends. I reduced this to about 4 feet of -12 an hose,a billet block adapter on factory filter block with full flow fittings,1 hose going to billet filter housing block from engine block,1 hose going from filter housing to cooler and 1 hose returning from the cooler to the block adapter. I suddenly had 60-65 psi of oil pressure almost all the time (std volume/ pressure pump),this garbage was restricing the hell out of the flow.
Back to what you want to do,I wouldn't do it mainly because you'll end up with restricive fittings due to the 3/8 pipe thread size of the holes and the requirement of turning quickily in that area BUT if you do:
1. Remember to plug the first hole closest to the filter boss 1/2 way up inside so it makes the oil go thru the cooler holes by dividing the upper and lower passages.
2. Be choosy in your fitting selection to avoid creating extra restrictions ( you could use 3/8 to -10 adapters and bore them out slightly) the use full flow sweeping -10 90's to get away from the block.
3. The only way I would consider this is if you still have a stock,std output pump,other wise you will just end up forcing the pump bypass ball open all the time which will aereate your oil and accelerate wear on the distributer drive gear plus it could possibly open the bypass valves in the filter boss area.
Let us know what you choose to do and how it works out for you.
BTW -I'm still using the same oil lines and cooler I switched to 7 years ago even with my curent 540 (different block adapter though),
Smitty
Last edited by articfriends; 07-26-2008 at 01:52 AM.
07-28-2008, 12:10 AM
#64
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Oil Cooling
Hi Smitty,
Thanks for the information. I was doing some research on the Gen V/Gen VI oiling while putting this motor together, and was tempted to do the bypass etc. as you have done, but thought I should try some things while breaking in the motor, and tuning, as I can always reach the oil lines as they are not too bad to get to in my boat.
In essence I ended up doing the lines as I said. I have 60 PSI on startup, after the motor warms up, and about 15 mins of running with a fake a lake, it goes to 40 psi. In the ocean or at the lake, full "in" the water, I have the same, and at wot I have 60+ psi on the gauge, which is ported to the fitting just above the oil filter pad housing on the block.
The motor is new, bearing at 22 thou, using factory pistons, rods, crank, rings etc.. The cam is new, my engine builder & my spec..
Anyway, here's a pic of the lines, which run 4- 5 feet max round trip out of the block, through the cooler, and back to the block.
I removed the fittings, and replaced the threaded oil filter fitting up against the block, and screwed the filter right to it, as I have space to reach it.. I will remote mount it in future, and will try to keep the remote mount to within 2-4 feet of the block to minimize the pressure drop..
The block fittings are GM truck block fittings, with about 3/8 (didn"t measure) inch ID. I cut the aluminum lines, and slipped them into HP oil hoses.. (See pic) they are internally radiused 90 degree factory fittings, and all other fittings are brass NPT 1/2 inch as you can see..
I'll let you guys know if it blows up.. I hope not, but I think that this may be another way to do it without changing the bypass valves etc. Granted, I know that Merc used a different setup.. I improvised this one, as I thought to keep it as simple as possible, and use what's there.. (I had all the cooling lines etc. when I bought the block, as it came out of a 1 ton crew cab with hd cooling etc....
Again, oil pressure is at a consistent 60+ psi, only going to a low of 40 psi when on the garden hose and the engine getting very very hot (190 water temp).... Once in the lake and the water temp drops runs less than 140 in lake, and barely climbs over 120 in ocean, the oil is consistently over 60psi.. Just ran it for several hours today, and it's fine so far..
I took the garden hose as a garage torture test, as in the ocean or lake it would never get that hot unless something failed etc..
To be also fair, none of the fittings are stock except for the block rail fittings... maybe that in itself increased flow and decreased the pressure drop..
Not related, but.... The headers are heat tinged as I had a cooling restriction in flow to them, and burned out my rubber transom connectors, and almost filled the engine compartment with water a week ago.. Anyway, not as pretty to look at, but works better now with additional cooling lines.. The CMI clamps are going to be replaced, as they are old and one broke...
Regards,
Richard
Thanks for the information. I was doing some research on the Gen V/Gen VI oiling while putting this motor together, and was tempted to do the bypass etc. as you have done, but thought I should try some things while breaking in the motor, and tuning, as I can always reach the oil lines as they are not too bad to get to in my boat.
In essence I ended up doing the lines as I said. I have 60 PSI on startup, after the motor warms up, and about 15 mins of running with a fake a lake, it goes to 40 psi. In the ocean or at the lake, full "in" the water, I have the same, and at wot I have 60+ psi on the gauge, which is ported to the fitting just above the oil filter pad housing on the block.
The motor is new, bearing at 22 thou, using factory pistons, rods, crank, rings etc.. The cam is new, my engine builder & my spec..
Anyway, here's a pic of the lines, which run 4- 5 feet max round trip out of the block, through the cooler, and back to the block.
I removed the fittings, and replaced the threaded oil filter fitting up against the block, and screwed the filter right to it, as I have space to reach it.. I will remote mount it in future, and will try to keep the remote mount to within 2-4 feet of the block to minimize the pressure drop..
The block fittings are GM truck block fittings, with about 3/8 (didn"t measure) inch ID. I cut the aluminum lines, and slipped them into HP oil hoses.. (See pic) they are internally radiused 90 degree factory fittings, and all other fittings are brass NPT 1/2 inch as you can see..
I'll let you guys know if it blows up.. I hope not, but I think that this may be another way to do it without changing the bypass valves etc. Granted, I know that Merc used a different setup.. I improvised this one, as I thought to keep it as simple as possible, and use what's there.. (I had all the cooling lines etc. when I bought the block, as it came out of a 1 ton crew cab with hd cooling etc....
Again, oil pressure is at a consistent 60+ psi, only going to a low of 40 psi when on the garden hose and the engine getting very very hot (190 water temp).... Once in the lake and the water temp drops runs less than 140 in lake, and barely climbs over 120 in ocean, the oil is consistently over 60psi.. Just ran it for several hours today, and it's fine so far..
I took the garden hose as a garage torture test, as in the ocean or lake it would never get that hot unless something failed etc..
To be also fair, none of the fittings are stock except for the block rail fittings... maybe that in itself increased flow and decreased the pressure drop..
Not related, but.... The headers are heat tinged as I had a cooling restriction in flow to them, and burned out my rubber transom connectors, and almost filled the engine compartment with water a week ago.. Anyway, not as pretty to look at, but works better now with additional cooling lines.. The CMI clamps are going to be replaced, as they are old and one broke...
Regards,
Richard
07-28-2008, 12:31 AM
#65
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Richard,seems like its working out for you. Keep in mind if for some reason you do change the hose routing (or if anyone reading this uses a truck block with factory oil cooler lines they choose to plug off) and plug the 2 holes in the block that you are currently using for the cooler lines that the divider plug will have to be removed or there will be no oil flow what so ever to the motor. Just tell everyone those are "special" gold edition cmi's,did your water pump go out or did you lose pressure while running on the hose,Smitty
07-28-2008, 12:53 AM
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Hi Smitty,
Yes, I will keep it in mind.. I thought to use what I have, but through research, was aware of the oiling issues when capping the block lines..
As far as the gold CMI's man what a pain in the butt.. Darned things leak, I had CMI fab me up a set of tails custom fit, and the tolerances on them were a bit off... One fits on easy, and the other was a bear to get on.... And the clamps don't keep water from leaking too well...
Anyway, I had a different thermostat housing, and not enough flow bypassing to go through the headers.. So, a small fire, and voila...! now the headers are gold.... Circ pump, and sea pump were fine... All new... Actually, the new pumps and restrictive thermostat bypass blew out the old oil cooler, so I had to upgrade early...
As a result of the restriction before, I reused the stock housing, and I ported the additional lines to the headers like Merc does with their 1200 SCI, and figured it should be cooler now... It is, when in the lake or ocean, the headers can be touched by hand, and it will not burn.. On the garden hose, no such luck..
The other thing that must be mentioned, is that the oil line out fitting on the block HAS A DIVERTER VALVE THAT MUST BE USED if these block fittings are used... If not, the flow will be incorrect in the block as well as the things you mentioned above..
I might have them make me another set.... I'm thinking of twin turbos.......
R
Yes, I will keep it in mind.. I thought to use what I have, but through research, was aware of the oiling issues when capping the block lines..
As far as the gold CMI's man what a pain in the butt.. Darned things leak, I had CMI fab me up a set of tails custom fit, and the tolerances on them were a bit off... One fits on easy, and the other was a bear to get on.... And the clamps don't keep water from leaking too well...
Anyway, I had a different thermostat housing, and not enough flow bypassing to go through the headers.. So, a small fire, and voila...! now the headers are gold.... Circ pump, and sea pump were fine... All new... Actually, the new pumps and restrictive thermostat bypass blew out the old oil cooler, so I had to upgrade early...
As a result of the restriction before, I reused the stock housing, and I ported the additional lines to the headers like Merc does with their 1200 SCI, and figured it should be cooler now... It is, when in the lake or ocean, the headers can be touched by hand, and it will not burn.. On the garden hose, no such luck..
The other thing that must be mentioned, is that the oil line out fitting on the block HAS A DIVERTER VALVE THAT MUST BE USED if these block fittings are used... If not, the flow will be incorrect in the block as well as the things you mentioned above..
I might have them make me another set.... I'm thinking of twin turbos.......
R
10-17-2008, 07:48 PM
#67
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Smitty great thread.....
is there a reason the cooler can not
be plumbed in line before the oil filter?
my gen 6 had a remote dual filter setup and I planned to
add a cooler before the filter housing, do I have this all wrong?
is there a reason the cooler can not
be plumbed in line before the oil filter?
my gen 6 had a remote dual filter setup and I planned to
add a cooler before the filter housing, do I have this all wrong?
10-18-2008, 04:02 AM
#68
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There is debate on weather oil should be filtered hot or cold,personally I like to filter it hot so there is not as much resistance from oil going thru filter but once oil is warmed up it's going to flow good thru filter even after its cooled because its not going to be cooled back to ambient. It would work but i woudn't consider it ideal but I do know many have done it the way you want and there not blowing up motors or anything,Smitty
10-18-2008, 04:13 AM
#69
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Actually KE recommends the cooler first ...I like Smitty's way better though ...Filter first keeps trash out of the cooler cept a blown motor would prob trash a cooler anyway ...but thats another subject of disscussion ....
