Marine Lubrication
12-20-2008, 01:02 PM
#1431
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Hydrocruiser,
Re: Motul 300V racing oil you mention below, was included in the Amsoil motorcycle oil white paper posted on their web site. For the most part it displayed expected performance and was ranked #2 over all by Amsoil. However one test result in particular caught my eye that was a total surprise in the light of this oil's heratige, FZG ASTM D5182 Gear Wear Performance (pages 14 & 15 of report attached). I was expecting very low gear wear but instead rather high (among the oils tested) gear wear was the result. Can you shead some light on this apparent paradox with a double ester oil that is used in Lemans endurance type racing?
Re: Motul 300V racing oil you mention below, was included in the Amsoil motorcycle oil white paper posted on their web site. For the most part it displayed expected performance and was ranked #2 over all by Amsoil. However one test result in particular caught my eye that was a total surprise in the light of this oil's heratige, FZG ASTM D5182 Gear Wear Performance (pages 14 & 15 of report attached). I was expecting very low gear wear but instead rather high (among the oils tested) gear wear was the result. Can you shead some light on this apparent paradox with a double ester oil that is used in Lemans endurance type racing?
Mobil-1 and Amsoil are GRP IV Pao's. Atleast the $10.00/qt products are.
Motul and Redline are 100% Grp V. Double esters.
Esters have such a gigantic affinity to metal and extreme film strength that the gasoline has an extremely hard time finding it's way to the metal parts of the engine. It's like a chemical barrier to gasoline.
Now Motul is $15.00/qt but it's worth the $$ I feel if you idle excessively.
To monitor for gasoline let some oil drain off the dipstic onto a metal spoon. Light the sample...be careful and away from flammables....if you get an open flame it's gas.
Be careful!
I like the 15W-50 Motul. It is used for a full 24hrs in many LeMans race cars. It's a bigtime endurance product.
Run some and send a sample to check for wear numbers. (Iron/copper/lead)
Motul and Redline are 100% Grp V. Double esters.
Esters have such a gigantic affinity to metal and extreme film strength that the gasoline has an extremely hard time finding it's way to the metal parts of the engine. It's like a chemical barrier to gasoline.
Now Motul is $15.00/qt but it's worth the $$ I feel if you idle excessively.
To monitor for gasoline let some oil drain off the dipstic onto a metal spoon. Light the sample...be careful and away from flammables....if you get an open flame it's gas.
Be careful!
I like the 15W-50 Motul. It is used for a full 24hrs in many LeMans race cars. It's a bigtime endurance product.
Run some and send a sample to check for wear numbers. (Iron/copper/lead)
12-20-2008, 02:16 PM
#1432
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Hydrocruiser,
Re: Motul 300V racing oil you mention below, was included in the Amsoil motorcycle oil white paper posted on their web site. For the most part it displayed expected performance and was ranked #2 over all by Amsoil. However one test result in particular caught my eye that was a total surprise in the light of this oil's heratige, FZG ASTM D5182 Gear Wear Performance (pages 14 & 15 of report attached). I was expecting very low gear wear but instead rather high (among the oils tested) gear wear was the result. Can you shead some light on this apparent paradox with a double ester oil that is used in Lemans endurance type racing?
Re: Motul 300V racing oil you mention below, was included in the Amsoil motorcycle oil white paper posted on their web site. For the most part it displayed expected performance and was ranked #2 over all by Amsoil. However one test result in particular caught my eye that was a total surprise in the light of this oil's heratige, FZG ASTM D5182 Gear Wear Performance (pages 14 & 15 of report attached). I was expecting very low gear wear but instead rather high (among the oils tested) gear wear was the result. Can you shead some light on this apparent paradox with a double ester oil that is used in Lemans endurance type racing?
I used to work in an industry that used research papers to support product use.
We always had to show several well conducted studies from the hypothesis to the conclusion.
Amsoil is showing "results"...
The test has to be double blind so nobody knows what oil is used and control oils need to be in place.
The number of vehicles studied needs to be high enough so as to attain a probablity stastic that the test was valid and the numbers mean something.
Usually for a probability statistic to be meaningful you need about 100 vehicles tested on each oil.
If the study is not funded by the manufacturer it is considered a less biased study.
Amsoil is a very nice GRP IV product as is Mobil-1. Several years back Amsoil products were GRP V products I understand.
It's all about profit when it comes to what base is used...and GRP V wins in my book.
These days they sell GRP IV products for the same cost of GRP V because of the lawsuit that M-1 settled which allowed a GRP III to be labeled "fully synthetic". Previously to the lawsuite a GRP IV/V ester were the lowest Grade Base that could legally have "fully synthetic labeling".
Last edited by Hydrocruiser; 12-20-2008 at 02:25 PM.
12-20-2008, 03:19 PM
#1433
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$9.95/qt for 20w50 and most other grades. Motorcycle oils mostly $12.95. Redline has an interesting, everything you ever wanted to know type, tech paper on their oil as well, copy attached.
12-20-2008, 04:18 PM
#1434
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I have seen a lot of used oil analysis samples from Redline and for some reason it was not all good. Why I do not know.
Amsoil/M-1/Motul/Penz Plat seem to give less wear numbers.
They are pushing their brand and who can fault them.
Also, Redlines pipes in the plant must be old as even new oil has some iron in it.
12-20-2008, 05:49 PM
#1435
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Tongue in cheek with that one study...
These days they sell GRP IV products for the same cost of GRP V because of the lawsuit that M-1 settled which allowed a GRP III to be labeled "fully synthetic". Previously to the lawsuite a GRP IV/V ester were the lowest Grade Base that could legally have "fully synthetic labeling".
These days they sell GRP IV products for the same cost of GRP V because of the lawsuit that M-1 settled which allowed a GRP III to be labeled "fully synthetic". Previously to the lawsuite a GRP IV/V ester were the lowest Grade Base that could legally have "fully synthetic labeling".
Ken
12-20-2008, 05:55 PM
#1436
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It's because of this lawsuit that I believe Mobil is a fully synthetic Group IV PAO. They are the worlds largest producer
of PAO basestock and then to "agree" with Castrol on "it's ok to use Group III's and call them synthetic" just doesn't seem it is something they would do.
They blend high quality stuff and will statisfy the requirement of 99.9 % of the users on this board.
Ken
of PAO basestock and then to "agree" with Castrol on "it's ok to use Group III's and call them synthetic" just doesn't seem it is something they would do.
They blend high quality stuff and will statisfy the requirement of 99.9 % of the users on this board.
Ken
12-20-2008, 08:38 PM
#1437
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It's because of this lawsuit that I believe Mobil is a fully synthetic Group IV PAO. They are the worlds largest producer
of PAO basestock and then to "agree" with Castrol on "it's ok to use Group III's and call them synthetic" just doesn't seem it is something they would do.
They blend high quality stuff and will statisfy the requirement of 99.9 % of the users on this board.
Ken
of PAO basestock and then to "agree" with Castrol on "it's ok to use Group III's and call them synthetic" just doesn't seem it is something they would do.
They blend high quality stuff and will statisfy the requirement of 99.9 % of the users on this board.
Ken
Still good oil.
12-20-2008, 11:05 PM
#1438
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And I was getting ready to switch to Redline.
In the various oil analysis of Redline you have seen are they most always higher wear than the others you name herein or only rarely higher wear than the others you name herein or......?
When higher oil analysis PPM wear results with Redline occur do they include iron , copper and lead or which of these?
The lowest combined wear I have recorded was with Merc 25W40 (stock 425hp), the highest iron, copper and lead PPM was with Mobil 1 20w50 V Twin (490hp and the main bearings were still the stock aluminum although new iron heads with tight fitting bronze valve guides were installed which could have played a role in the higher iron and copper PPM). Amsoil 20w50 Series 2000 Racing (550 hp and 600hp) oil was close or better than the Merc oil in iron PPM and slightly better than the Mobil 1 in copper and lead wear and that was with 5% and 3.8% gas content in the Amsoil, 1.5% in the Merc and 1.0% in the Mobil 1.
I should give the amsoil another try when I get the gas content down. Maybe Mobil 1 as well but I do not like their calling blends synthetic.
In the various oil analysis of Redline you have seen are they most always higher wear than the others you name herein or only rarely higher wear than the others you name herein or......?
When higher oil analysis PPM wear results with Redline occur do they include iron , copper and lead or which of these?
The lowest combined wear I have recorded was with Merc 25W40 (stock 425hp), the highest iron, copper and lead PPM was with Mobil 1 20w50 V Twin (490hp and the main bearings were still the stock aluminum although new iron heads with tight fitting bronze valve guides were installed which could have played a role in the higher iron and copper PPM). Amsoil 20w50 Series 2000 Racing (550 hp and 600hp) oil was close or better than the Merc oil in iron PPM and slightly better than the Mobil 1 in copper and lead wear and that was with 5% and 3.8% gas content in the Amsoil, 1.5% in the Merc and 1.0% in the Mobil 1.
I should give the amsoil another try when I get the gas content down. Maybe Mobil 1 as well but I do not like their calling blends synthetic.
I have seen a lot of used oil analysis samples from Redline and for some reason it was not all good. Why I do not know.
Amsoil/M-1/Motul/Penz Plat seem to give less wear numbers.
They are pushing their brand and who can fault them.
Also, Redlines pipes in the plant must be old as even new oil has some iron in it.
Amsoil/M-1/Motul/Penz Plat seem to give less wear numbers.
They are pushing their brand and who can fault them.
Also, Redlines pipes in the plant must be old as even new oil has some iron in it.
12-21-2008, 07:31 PM
#1439
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And I was getting ready to switch to Redline.
In the various oil analysis of Redline you have seen are they most always higher wear than the others you name herein or only rarely higher wear than the others you name herein or......?
When higher oil analysis PPM wear results with Redline occur do they include iron , copper and lead or which of these?
The lowest combined wear I have recorded was with Merc 25W40 (stock 425hp), the highest iron, copper and lead PPM was with Mobil 1 20w50 V Twin (490hp and the main bearings were still the stock aluminum although new iron heads with tight fitting bronze valve guides were installed which could have played a role in the higher iron and copper PPM). Amsoil 20w50 Series 2000 Racing (550 hp and 600hp) oil was close or better than the Merc oil in iron PPM and slightly better than the Mobil 1 in copper and lead wear and that was with 5% and 3.8% gas content in the Amsoil, 1.5% in the Merc and 1.0% in the Mobil 1.
I should give the amsoil another try when I get the gas content down. Maybe Mobil 1 as well but I do not like their calling blends synthetic.
In the various oil analysis of Redline you have seen are they most always higher wear than the others you name herein or only rarely higher wear than the others you name herein or......?
When higher oil analysis PPM wear results with Redline occur do they include iron , copper and lead or which of these?
The lowest combined wear I have recorded was with Merc 25W40 (stock 425hp), the highest iron, copper and lead PPM was with Mobil 1 20w50 V Twin (490hp and the main bearings were still the stock aluminum although new iron heads with tight fitting bronze valve guides were installed which could have played a role in the higher iron and copper PPM). Amsoil 20w50 Series 2000 Racing (550 hp and 600hp) oil was close or better than the Merc oil in iron PPM and slightly better than the Mobil 1 in copper and lead wear and that was with 5% and 3.8% gas content in the Amsoil, 1.5% in the Merc and 1.0% in the Mobil 1.
I should give the amsoil another try when I get the gas content down. Maybe Mobil 1 as well but I do not like their calling blends synthetic.
Give Motul 15W-50 a go.
12-22-2008, 02:21 PM
#1440
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Hydrocruiser,
More generic then. The Redline oil analysis's which were less than optimum, what area(s) was(were) the shortfall? Wear, viscosity,other?
More generic then. The Redline oil analysis's which were less than optimum, what area(s) was(were) the shortfall? Wear, viscosity,other?
And I was getting ready to switch to Redline.
In the various oil analysis of Redline you have seen are they most always higher wear than the others you name herein or only rarely higher wear than the others you name herein or......?
When higher oil analysis PPM wear results with Redline occur do they include iron , copper and lead or which of these?
The lowest combined wear I have recorded was with Merc 25W40 (stock 425hp), the highest iron, copper and lead PPM was with Mobil 1 20w50 V Twin (490hp and the main bearings were still the stock aluminum although new iron heads with tight fitting bronze valve guides were installed which could have played a role in the higher iron and copper PPM). Amsoil 20w50 Series 2000 Racing (550 hp and 600hp) oil was close or better than the Merc oil in iron PPM and slightly better than the Mobil 1 in copper and lead wear and that was with 5% and 3.8% gas content in the Amsoil, 1.5% in the Merc and 1.0% in the Mobil 1.
I should give the amsoil another try when I get the gas content down. Maybe Mobil 1 as well but I do not like their calling blends synthetic.
In the various oil analysis of Redline you have seen are they most always higher wear than the others you name herein or only rarely higher wear than the others you name herein or......?
When higher oil analysis PPM wear results with Redline occur do they include iron , copper and lead or which of these?
The lowest combined wear I have recorded was with Merc 25W40 (stock 425hp), the highest iron, copper and lead PPM was with Mobil 1 20w50 V Twin (490hp and the main bearings were still the stock aluminum although new iron heads with tight fitting bronze valve guides were installed which could have played a role in the higher iron and copper PPM). Amsoil 20w50 Series 2000 Racing (550 hp and 600hp) oil was close or better than the Merc oil in iron PPM and slightly better than the Mobil 1 in copper and lead wear and that was with 5% and 3.8% gas content in the Amsoil, 1.5% in the Merc and 1.0% in the Mobil 1.
I should give the amsoil another try when I get the gas content down. Maybe Mobil 1 as well but I do not like their calling blends synthetic.
