OK, What's the Consensus On Antifreeze...in or out?
12-30-2007, 09:13 AM
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Got this off another site.
Antifreeze facts -
I am a chemical engineer (24 years exp.) and specialize in glycol production, recycling, and engine coolant formulation. There is a lot of mis-information - but a lot of good posts in this thread - out there; let's see if I can answer some of these questions.
1. Antifreeze for diesel. Technically, "heavy duty" diesels are better off with "heavy duty" antifreeze, but that is only in-service (not storage) and only certain high-load, wet sleave aplications (big 250+ HP Cummins in truck - wet sleave design). However, I would be wary of RV antifreeze meeting the corrosion protection requirments, as posted. The proper and normal inhibitors (borate, tolyoltriazole, nitrite etc.) are slightly toxic and are not permited in RV antifreeze. I would recomend any good auto AF.
2. Bacteria. High risk if weak (under 30%) or pH low (under 10). Remember, your car sterilizes every time it runs. Best bet is >40% auto AF (higher pH than RV... generally). In practice, this will never "go bad." EG vs PG are the same. We run biodegradability tests, and see no difference. They infect the same.
3. Toxicity. Don't go near the potable water system with vehical AF. Risk is simply too great. You may forget, or miss a dead leg.
4. Environment. Propylene glycol (sometimes pink - RV AF) and ethylene glycol (green, red, yellow, pink, others) are THE SAME to the environment. Both are equally degradeable. both are non-toxic to fish/marine org. Neither are EPA listed marine polutants. EG is toxic primarily to mammals, and particularly hard on cats. Neither should go in the water (oxygen demand), but neither will do great harm. Rather like a little sterile sewage.
5. Color. As stated, a poor determinant for any purpose. We make all kinds of formulas, all sorts of colors, to meet manufacturer specs. Very confusing... sorry!
6. Recycling. EG, PG, and glycerin (cheaper than either now because of bio-diesel - didn't know that huh?) - no problem. But try to limit the amount of water. Many recyclers will reject the material if over 30% water. They don't want your flush.
7. Freeze point. I hate the 100F "burst point" claims. It is close to false advertising, since it hides the true composition and safe dilution rates. The dilution panel on the back of auto AF is far more informative and honest. Burst point refers to the temp where a specific metal pipe can burst. Plastic is different!
The potencial chop is this; if the slush forms repeatedly, then melts, then reforms, it will carry all of the water to a high point. That high point will have no AF and can burst. I ripped 20 feet of schd 40 steel pipe open in just that way, with a 0F mixture in the system. The pipe was only ~ 25F protection when it burst. It all depends on freeze/thaw cyles and the complexity of the system.
8. Additives. If you MUST treat your engine right, there are PG automotive AF types out there (Sierra). I doubt there is anything special about yanmar blue. Or you could add Pencol or Fleet Guard additives. They are not for freeze point - just corrosion.
Antifreeze facts -
I am a chemical engineer (24 years exp.) and specialize in glycol production, recycling, and engine coolant formulation. There is a lot of mis-information - but a lot of good posts in this thread - out there; let's see if I can answer some of these questions.
1. Antifreeze for diesel. Technically, "heavy duty" diesels are better off with "heavy duty" antifreeze, but that is only in-service (not storage) and only certain high-load, wet sleave aplications (big 250+ HP Cummins in truck - wet sleave design). However, I would be wary of RV antifreeze meeting the corrosion protection requirments, as posted. The proper and normal inhibitors (borate, tolyoltriazole, nitrite etc.) are slightly toxic and are not permited in RV antifreeze. I would recomend any good auto AF.
2. Bacteria. High risk if weak (under 30%) or pH low (under 10). Remember, your car sterilizes every time it runs. Best bet is >40% auto AF (higher pH than RV... generally). In practice, this will never "go bad." EG vs PG are the same. We run biodegradability tests, and see no difference. They infect the same.
3. Toxicity. Don't go near the potable water system with vehical AF. Risk is simply too great. You may forget, or miss a dead leg.
4. Environment. Propylene glycol (sometimes pink - RV AF) and ethylene glycol (green, red, yellow, pink, others) are THE SAME to the environment. Both are equally degradeable. both are non-toxic to fish/marine org. Neither are EPA listed marine polutants. EG is toxic primarily to mammals, and particularly hard on cats. Neither should go in the water (oxygen demand), but neither will do great harm. Rather like a little sterile sewage.
5. Color. As stated, a poor determinant for any purpose. We make all kinds of formulas, all sorts of colors, to meet manufacturer specs. Very confusing... sorry!
6. Recycling. EG, PG, and glycerin (cheaper than either now because of bio-diesel - didn't know that huh?) - no problem. But try to limit the amount of water. Many recyclers will reject the material if over 30% water. They don't want your flush.
7. Freeze point. I hate the 100F "burst point" claims. It is close to false advertising, since it hides the true composition and safe dilution rates. The dilution panel on the back of auto AF is far more informative and honest. Burst point refers to the temp where a specific metal pipe can burst. Plastic is different!
The potencial chop is this; if the slush forms repeatedly, then melts, then reforms, it will carry all of the water to a high point. That high point will have no AF and can burst. I ripped 20 feet of schd 40 steel pipe open in just that way, with a 0F mixture in the system. The pipe was only ~ 25F protection when it burst. It all depends on freeze/thaw cyles and the complexity of the system.
8. Additives. If you MUST treat your engine right, there are PG automotive AF types out there (Sierra). I doubt there is anything special about yanmar blue. Or you could add Pencol or Fleet Guard additives. They are not for freeze point - just corrosion.
12-30-2007, 09:30 AM
#22
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With my Stellings headers, I run 50/50 antifreeze mix through them and then drain the headers. I guarantee this way that there is no pocket of water in the supply to each individual runner without dissassembling them. I beleive that there is no way to blow it all out, I have tried, then taken of the supply and still found water...I believe is cheap insurance for little effort. As far as the block goes, I always fill with antifreeze. It is a fact there will be less internal rust and better conditioning of the seals. If you don't intend on keeping the boat for a long time, probably won't matter to you. I like the idea of reusing the antifreeze, I always use Prestone low tox but admittedly some always ends up in the drive and yard.
So, I'm hearing that I should at least pull the drain plugs on the header balance rails? These CMI headers have me the most concerned given all the horror stories I've read. Mine are the new style as well...hoping for the best. And who knows how long I will own this boat. I had my last one for 5 years, which was longer than I wanted. But these water toys just keep getting more and more expensive...exponentially!
Last edited by Macklin; 12-30-2007 at 09:49 AM.
12-30-2007, 09:35 AM
#23
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Got this off another site.
Antifreeze facts -
I am a chemical engineer (24 years exp.) and specialize in glycol production, recycling, and engine coolant formulation. There is a lot of mis-information - but a lot of good posts in this thread - out there; let's see if I can answer some of these questions.
1. Antifreeze for diesel. Technically, "heavy duty" diesels are better off with "heavy duty" antifreeze, but that is only in-service (not storage) and only certain high-load, wet sleave aplications (big 250+ HP Cummins in truck - wet sleave design). However, I would be wary of RV antifreeze meeting the corrosion protection requirments, as posted. The proper and normal inhibitors (borate, tolyoltriazole, nitrite etc.) are slightly toxic and are not permited in RV antifreeze. I would recomend any good auto AF.
2. Bacteria. High risk if weak (under 30%) or pH low (under 10). Remember, your car sterilizes every time it runs. Best bet is >40% auto AF (higher pH than RV... generally). In practice, this will never "go bad." EG vs PG are the same. We run biodegradability tests, and see no difference. They infect the same.
3. Toxicity. Don't go near the potable water system with vehical AF. Risk is simply too great. You may forget, or miss a dead leg.
4. Environment. Propylene glycol (sometimes pink - RV AF) and ethylene glycol (green, red, yellow, pink, others) are THE SAME to the environment. Both are equally degradeable. both are non-toxic to fish/marine org. Neither are EPA listed marine polutants. EG is toxic primarily to mammals, and particularly hard on cats. Neither should go in the water (oxygen demand), but neither will do great harm. Rather like a little sterile sewage.
5. Color. As stated, a poor determinant for any purpose. We make all kinds of formulas, all sorts of colors, to meet manufacturer specs. Very confusing... sorry!
6. Recycling. EG, PG, and glycerin (cheaper than either now because of bio-diesel - didn't know that huh?) - no problem. But try to limit the amount of water. Many recyclers will reject the material if over 30% water. They don't want your flush.
7. Freeze point. I hate the 100F "burst point" claims. It is close to false advertising, since it hides the true composition and safe dilution rates. The dilution panel on the back of auto AF is far more informative and honest. Burst point refers to the temp where a specific metal pipe can burst. Plastic is different!
The potencial chop is this; if the slush forms repeatedly, then melts, then reforms, it will carry all of the water to a high point. That high point will have no AF and can burst. I ripped 20 feet of schd 40 steel pipe open in just that way, with a 0F mixture in the system. The pipe was only ~ 25F protection when it burst. It all depends on freeze/thaw cyles and the complexity of the system.
8. Additives. If you MUST treat your engine right, there are PG automotive AF types out there (Sierra). I doubt there is anything special about yanmar blue. Or you could add Pencol or Fleet Guard additives. They are not for freeze point - just corrosion.
Antifreeze facts -
I am a chemical engineer (24 years exp.) and specialize in glycol production, recycling, and engine coolant formulation. There is a lot of mis-information - but a lot of good posts in this thread - out there; let's see if I can answer some of these questions.
1. Antifreeze for diesel. Technically, "heavy duty" diesels are better off with "heavy duty" antifreeze, but that is only in-service (not storage) and only certain high-load, wet sleave aplications (big 250+ HP Cummins in truck - wet sleave design). However, I would be wary of RV antifreeze meeting the corrosion protection requirments, as posted. The proper and normal inhibitors (borate, tolyoltriazole, nitrite etc.) are slightly toxic and are not permited in RV antifreeze. I would recomend any good auto AF.
2. Bacteria. High risk if weak (under 30%) or pH low (under 10). Remember, your car sterilizes every time it runs. Best bet is >40% auto AF (higher pH than RV... generally). In practice, this will never "go bad." EG vs PG are the same. We run biodegradability tests, and see no difference. They infect the same.
3. Toxicity. Don't go near the potable water system with vehical AF. Risk is simply too great. You may forget, or miss a dead leg.
4. Environment. Propylene glycol (sometimes pink - RV AF) and ethylene glycol (green, red, yellow, pink, others) are THE SAME to the environment. Both are equally degradeable. both are non-toxic to fish/marine org. Neither are EPA listed marine polutants. EG is toxic primarily to mammals, and particularly hard on cats. Neither should go in the water (oxygen demand), but neither will do great harm. Rather like a little sterile sewage.
5. Color. As stated, a poor determinant for any purpose. We make all kinds of formulas, all sorts of colors, to meet manufacturer specs. Very confusing... sorry!
6. Recycling. EG, PG, and glycerin (cheaper than either now because of bio-diesel - didn't know that huh?) - no problem. But try to limit the amount of water. Many recyclers will reject the material if over 30% water. They don't want your flush.
7. Freeze point. I hate the 100F "burst point" claims. It is close to false advertising, since it hides the true composition and safe dilution rates. The dilution panel on the back of auto AF is far more informative and honest. Burst point refers to the temp where a specific metal pipe can burst. Plastic is different!
The potencial chop is this; if the slush forms repeatedly, then melts, then reforms, it will carry all of the water to a high point. That high point will have no AF and can burst. I ripped 20 feet of schd 40 steel pipe open in just that way, with a 0F mixture in the system. The pipe was only ~ 25F protection when it burst. It all depends on freeze/thaw cyles and the complexity of the system.
8. Additives. If you MUST treat your engine right, there are PG automotive AF types out there (Sierra). I doubt there is anything special about yanmar blue. Or you could add Pencol or Fleet Guard additives. They are not for freeze point - just corrosion.
Last edited by Macklin; 12-30-2007 at 09:47 AM.
12-30-2007, 09:53 AM
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I found the part about "particularly hard on cats" interesting, that could be useful
...........
Last edited by RaggedEdge; 12-30-2007 at 09:55 AM.
12-30-2007, 10:09 AM
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Macklin You Really Should Not Fog A Efi Motor No Need To Around Here And I Would Leave The Anti-freeze In And Put It Away I Did Frankie's Boat That Way And Marks AND 10 OTHERS... Hope Your Holidays Were Great...
Stan
Stan
Last edited by baja36ft; 12-30-2007 at 10:23 AM.
12-30-2007, 10:26 AM
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I fogged it through the fuel/water separator. I am convinced that is better than spraying foggin oil into the throttle bodies, which is how my previous mechanic did my last boat. Have to say, I had no issues with it over the years.
Happy Holidays to you too Stan. Going to Tommy & Dena's NYD party?
Last edited by Macklin; 12-30-2007 at 10:29 AM.
12-30-2007, 06:02 PM
#27
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I don't doubt that the pink stuff wil freeze at some point. I have done the freeze test here in Va. and haven't seen it happen. Granted, our winters are a lot milder than you guys in NY and Mi. We very seldom get temps near zero. I will agree that there is no corrosion preventtion in the pink, but with the absence of air in the block,helps keep the oxidation to a minimum. I had my engines apart last year and the cooling systems were very clean and rust free.
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12-30-2007, 06:34 PM
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Yep used the pink stuff for same reasons. Dealer I used to work for also swore by it. Would have to be really cold temps for this stuff to slush up
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12-30-2007, 10:18 PM
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