EFI for everyone
08-19-2014, 10:30 AM
#361
Registered
No, never made it to a dyno. I wish it could have but it just wasn't in the budget. Bob told me "you are really, really going to like this motor" and I believe him. Our goal was 750+ hp. I should be able to get good guesstimate on power next year once I get to serious prop testing on the hull. My hull is very consistent about what HP equates to what speeds. This year I just want to get back on the water and catch what little remains of summer.
Components are:
2100 cfm Accel throttle body, ported and matched Edelbrock 454R dominator intake modified for injectors and 1" spacer, Holley HP ECU, 10.25 CR, AFR full CNC 335cc heads, Total Seal Max-Seal gapless rings, Flat top Icon pistons, Manley 4340 H-beam rods, Ohio Crank 4340 4.25 stroke, GM Perf. gen 6 bowtie block, LS round "heatsink" ignition coils, Cam Motion high rpm roller lifters, Isky tool room springs, .120 wall custom pushrods, and of course the Bob Madera cam. EMI Thunder manifolds with long risers that will be extended through transom over the winter.
Bob was amazing to work with and was instrumental on picking components that will compliment each other. This is the second motor I have done with him and the largest build Ive done yet as it was basically all brand new from the ground up. I am going to prop for around 6300 rpm which according to Bob should be the spot.
Components are:
2100 cfm Accel throttle body, ported and matched Edelbrock 454R dominator intake modified for injectors and 1" spacer, Holley HP ECU, 10.25 CR, AFR full CNC 335cc heads, Total Seal Max-Seal gapless rings, Flat top Icon pistons, Manley 4340 H-beam rods, Ohio Crank 4340 4.25 stroke, GM Perf. gen 6 bowtie block, LS round "heatsink" ignition coils, Cam Motion high rpm roller lifters, Isky tool room springs, .120 wall custom pushrods, and of course the Bob Madera cam. EMI Thunder manifolds with long risers that will be extended through transom over the winter.
Bob was amazing to work with and was instrumental on picking components that will compliment each other. This is the second motor I have done with him and the largest build Ive done yet as it was basically all brand new from the ground up. I am going to prop for around 6300 rpm which according to Bob should be the spot.
Last edited by Gimme Fuel; 08-19-2014 at 10:38 AM.
08-19-2014, 08:29 PM
#362
Just curious, do you think the tuning the the ECM is doing at 80 degrees will be right at 100 degrees
08-19-2014, 09:17 PM
#363
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This is my take on it. Any learning it does at 80 degrees will soon be over written when the motor warms up to 100 degrees and revisits the same rpm ranges. The only RPM range my motor visits until it reaches 100 degrees temp is idle. So if I allow it to idle for a bit at 100 degrees engine temp it should relearn that area. This is all new to me so I welcome any input.
I am thinking that I will get the boat out this weekend with a full tank of gas and let the computer learn all day. Then i will pull my O2 sensor and run open loop. Anyone have any opinions on that idea?
Last edited by hadleycat; 08-19-2014 at 09:30 PM.
08-20-2014, 05:28 AM
#364
You might want to tune at 100 degrees and then use warm up enrichment to add fuel needed for temps less than that. Then the ECM won't be remapping completly every time you take it out.
08-20-2014, 08:53 AM
#365
MarineKinetics
Platinum Member
Gimme,
I’m going to refrain from putting hard output numbers on this engine without supporting data. We can however, benchmark it against nearly identical platforms that have been validated on a well calibrated dyno.
Mark at MER performance has a 540 on the dyno at this time that is currently making 732.5 hp at 6000 RPM and 677 TQ. The differences between the dyno engine and your engine are;
• Your engine has the same cylinder head with the exception yours are fully ported and the dyno specimen is partially ported.
• You have about 3/10 of a point more compression than the dyno engine
• Your camshaft is designed to make peak power and 6300 RPM while the dyno example is making peak power at 6000 RPM
Given those three deltas between engines it would not be unreasonable to suggest that your potential output could be estimated at somewhere between 750 and 765 hp on pump gas.
There a number of features with this Holley system that greatly benefited our ability to increase output. The first is, the ease of tuning featured in the system has made it possible for us to exploit camshaft profiles in these EFI platforms that we were not previously utilizing. It was always the restriction of running an EFI friendly camshaft with engine management systems that could not provide the end-user with the tools to tune close loop, both off and on the dyno.
While some self tuning EFI systems offer very little user input, requiring milder cam profiles for improved low speed vacuum, Holley EFI offers multiple tuning strategy's and almost unlimited manual tuning capabilities, in addition to the incredibly fast auto tune feature, coupled with precise injector control, and even more options for injector firing.
We are seeing many of our projects previously running carbureted platforms with aggressive camshafts having converted to the Holley EFI system, tuning out the vast majority of the low-speed misfire. Idle and docking manners have vastly improved even with aggressive camshafts. We have the flexibility to provide the camshaft/valvetrain the engine wants not what the engine management system requires.
Bob
I’m going to refrain from putting hard output numbers on this engine without supporting data. We can however, benchmark it against nearly identical platforms that have been validated on a well calibrated dyno.
Mark at MER performance has a 540 on the dyno at this time that is currently making 732.5 hp at 6000 RPM and 677 TQ. The differences between the dyno engine and your engine are;
• Your engine has the same cylinder head with the exception yours are fully ported and the dyno specimen is partially ported.
• You have about 3/10 of a point more compression than the dyno engine
• Your camshaft is designed to make peak power and 6300 RPM while the dyno example is making peak power at 6000 RPM
Given those three deltas between engines it would not be unreasonable to suggest that your potential output could be estimated at somewhere between 750 and 765 hp on pump gas.
There a number of features with this Holley system that greatly benefited our ability to increase output. The first is, the ease of tuning featured in the system has made it possible for us to exploit camshaft profiles in these EFI platforms that we were not previously utilizing. It was always the restriction of running an EFI friendly camshaft with engine management systems that could not provide the end-user with the tools to tune close loop, both off and on the dyno.
While some self tuning EFI systems offer very little user input, requiring milder cam profiles for improved low speed vacuum, Holley EFI offers multiple tuning strategy's and almost unlimited manual tuning capabilities, in addition to the incredibly fast auto tune feature, coupled with precise injector control, and even more options for injector firing.
We are seeing many of our projects previously running carbureted platforms with aggressive camshafts having converted to the Holley EFI system, tuning out the vast majority of the low-speed misfire. Idle and docking manners have vastly improved even with aggressive camshafts. We have the flexibility to provide the camshaft/valvetrain the engine wants not what the engine management system requires.
Bob
08-20-2014, 09:42 AM
#366
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Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Cincinnati,Oh
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No, never made it to a dyno. I wish it could have but it just wasn't in the budget. Bob told me "you are really, really going to like this motor" and I believe him. Our goal was 750+ hp. I should be able to get good guesstimate on power next year once I get to serious prop testing on the hull. My hull is very consistent about what HP equates to what speeds. This year I just want to get back on the water and catch what little remains of summer.
Components are:
2100 cfm Accel throttle body, ported and matched Edelbrock 454R dominator intake modified for injectors and 1" spacer, Holley HP ECU, 10.25 CR, AFR full CNC 335cc heads, Total Seal Max-Seal gapless rings, Flat top Icon pistons, Manley 4340 H-beam rods, Ohio Crank 4340 4.25 stroke, GM Perf. gen 6 bowtie block, LS round "heatsink" ignition coils, Cam Motion high rpm roller lifters, Isky tool room springs, .120 wall custom pushrods, and of course the Bob Madera cam. EMI Thunder manifolds with long risers that will be extended through transom over the winter.
Bob was amazing to work with and was instrumental on picking components that will compliment each other. This is the second motor I have done with him and the largest build Ive done yet as it was basically all brand new from the ground up. I am going to prop for around 6300 rpm which according to Bob should be the spot.
Components are:
2100 cfm Accel throttle body, ported and matched Edelbrock 454R dominator intake modified for injectors and 1" spacer, Holley HP ECU, 10.25 CR, AFR full CNC 335cc heads, Total Seal Max-Seal gapless rings, Flat top Icon pistons, Manley 4340 H-beam rods, Ohio Crank 4340 4.25 stroke, GM Perf. gen 6 bowtie block, LS round "heatsink" ignition coils, Cam Motion high rpm roller lifters, Isky tool room springs, .120 wall custom pushrods, and of course the Bob Madera cam. EMI Thunder manifolds with long risers that will be extended through transom over the winter.
Bob was amazing to work with and was instrumental on picking components that will compliment each other. This is the second motor I have done with him and the largest build Ive done yet as it was basically all brand new from the ground up. I am going to prop for around 6300 rpm which according to Bob should be the spot.
08-20-2014, 10:50 AM
#367
Registered
Gimme,
I’m going to refrain from putting hard output numbers on this engine without supporting data. We can however, benchmark it against nearly identical platforms that have been validated on a well calibrated dyno.
Mark at MER performance has a 540 on the dyno at this time that is currently making 732.5 hp at 6000 RPM and 677 TQ. The differences between the dyno engine and your engine are;
• Your engine has the same cylinder head with the exception yours are fully ported and the dyno specimen is partially ported.
• You have about 3/10 of a point more compression than the dyno engine
• Your camshaft is designed to make peak power and 6300 RPM while the dyno example is making peak power at 6000 RPM
Given those three deltas between engines it would not be unreasonable to suggest that your potential output could be estimated at somewhere between 750 and 765 hp on pump gas.
There a number of features with this Holley system that greatly benefited our ability to increase output. The first is, the ease of tuning featured in the system has made it possible for us to exploit camshaft profiles in these EFI platforms that we were not previously utilizing. It was always the restriction of running an EFI friendly camshaft with engine management systems that could not provide the end-user with the tools to tune close loop, both off and on the dyno.
While some self tuning EFI systems offer very little user input, requiring milder cam profiles for improved low speed vacuum, Holley EFI offers multiple tuning strategy's and almost unlimited manual tuning capabilities, in addition to the incredibly fast auto tune feature, coupled with precise injector control, and even more options for injector firing.
We are seeing many of our projects previously running carbureted platforms with aggressive camshafts having converted to the Holley EFI system, tuning out the vast majority of the low-speed misfire. Idle and docking manners have vastly improved even with aggressive camshafts. We have the flexibility to provide the camshaft/valvetrain the engine wants not what the engine management system requires.
Bob
I’m going to refrain from putting hard output numbers on this engine without supporting data. We can however, benchmark it against nearly identical platforms that have been validated on a well calibrated dyno.
Mark at MER performance has a 540 on the dyno at this time that is currently making 732.5 hp at 6000 RPM and 677 TQ. The differences between the dyno engine and your engine are;
• Your engine has the same cylinder head with the exception yours are fully ported and the dyno specimen is partially ported.
• You have about 3/10 of a point more compression than the dyno engine
• Your camshaft is designed to make peak power and 6300 RPM while the dyno example is making peak power at 6000 RPM
Given those three deltas between engines it would not be unreasonable to suggest that your potential output could be estimated at somewhere between 750 and 765 hp on pump gas.
There a number of features with this Holley system that greatly benefited our ability to increase output. The first is, the ease of tuning featured in the system has made it possible for us to exploit camshaft profiles in these EFI platforms that we were not previously utilizing. It was always the restriction of running an EFI friendly camshaft with engine management systems that could not provide the end-user with the tools to tune close loop, both off and on the dyno.
While some self tuning EFI systems offer very little user input, requiring milder cam profiles for improved low speed vacuum, Holley EFI offers multiple tuning strategy's and almost unlimited manual tuning capabilities, in addition to the incredibly fast auto tune feature, coupled with precise injector control, and even more options for injector firing.
We are seeing many of our projects previously running carbureted platforms with aggressive camshafts having converted to the Holley EFI system, tuning out the vast majority of the low-speed misfire. Idle and docking manners have vastly improved even with aggressive camshafts. We have the flexibility to provide the camshaft/valvetrain the engine wants not what the engine management system requires.
Bob
So far I love the Holley system and weather permitting it should hit the river tonight for a short "learn" session after I adjust the idle a bit. Mostly just need to adjust throttle stop to crack butterflies a bit for some more air at idle. Yes JWay, I am doing the tuning with Holey software on the water. Actually more or less I am just grabbing the throttle and the ECU will do most of the thinking. I have O2 sensors in my exhaust risers so it can run closed loop/learn. Currently I am not running the cam sync sensor so it is in batch/waste fire mode. I will mess around with going sequential next season after becoming more accustomed to doing so. Am I going to squeeze every last HP out of this thing? More than likely not without putting it on a dyno with an advanced tuner at the controls. It can be perfectly tuned in dyno conditions but the tune that matters to me is the one learned in the boat in its operating environment with all driven accessories and practical performance manifolds, not dyno headers. Heck, I wish there was a place I could dyno a fully dressed marine engine just the way it would sit in the boat for "real" numbers. Yes the engine has the potential for those fantastic numbers but I shouldn't be far behind. I'm a realist and this thing is still one stout 540 and will still put one heck of a smile on my face and that is what it is all about.
Last edited by Gimme Fuel; 08-20-2014 at 11:07 AM.
08-20-2014, 01:39 PM
#368
I thought about doing this when I was having difficulty keeping my O2 alive (kept water shorting it). I however wanted to keep the closed loop functionality as it is one of the great benefits of these EFI systems to be able to adjust to changing conditions. I was lucky enough to run across someone talking about the Innovative O2 heat sink/extender on the Holley forum and bought one. I have logged well over 60 hours since putting that on without hiccup....no more O2's killed. I did however set the closed loop not to come on until 1500 rpm just in case. I'm confident enough in my lower rpm tuning (<1500) to run open loop. My thought here is that if the O2 were to take a crap, I would at least have a limp home mode being able to run the motor up to 1500 rpm; anything beyond, the learn table would be corrupt due to the shorted O2. Also, after you're confident in the tune you can pull back on the closed loop and learned compensation limits. Hope this helps. Two seasons now with the Holley HP and a 8 stack intake. (I detailed the build here: http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/c...r-project.html) THANKS ALEX FOR ALL THE HELP!!
Last edited by rvander68; 08-20-2014 at 01:42 PM.
08-20-2014, 03:41 PM
#369
Registered
Thanks Bob, Thats right where I wanna be and I too don't like hard numbers without validation. I usually tell guys at the docks the same thing I tell the Sheriff when they ask, "It'll do 55 mph" haha (Inland lake/river speed limit in Michigan). I appreciate the info on MER's latest build and I know it took you forever to write that post. I know we talked heavily about the 572 MER had previously dyno'ed some great numbers on using similar components. You and MER have been building some fantastic packages and I know I went to the right guys for this build. Like you have said "Under-promise and Over-deliver" and that you do well.
you do..your boat with a driver and someone at the laptop...we have been tuning that way, does not get any better than that..good luck Rob
So far I love the Holley system and weather permitting it should hit the river tonight for a short "learn" session after I adjust the idle a bit. Mostly just need to adjust throttle stop to crack butterflies a bit for some more air at idle. Yes JWay, I am doing the tuning with Holey software on the water. Actually more or less I am just grabbing the throttle and the ECU will do most of the thinking. I have O2 sensors in my exhaust risers so it can run closed loop/learn. Currently I am not running the cam sync sensor so it is in batch/waste fire mode. I will mess around with going sequential next season after becoming more accustomed to doing so. Am I going to squeeze every last HP out of this thing? More than likely not without putting it on a dyno with an advanced tuner at the controls. It can be perfectly tuned in dyno conditions but the tune that matters to me is the one learned in the boat in its operating environment with all driven accessories and practical performance manifolds, not dyno headers. Heck, I wish there was a place I could dyno a fully dressed marine engine just the way it would sit in the boat for "real" numbers. Yes the engine has the potential for those fantastic numbers but I shouldn't be far behind. I'm a realist and this thing is still one stout 540 and will still put one heck of a smile on my face and that is what it is all about.
you do..your boat with a driver and someone at the laptop...we have been tuning that way, does not get any better than that..good luck Rob
So far I love the Holley system and weather permitting it should hit the river tonight for a short "learn" session after I adjust the idle a bit. Mostly just need to adjust throttle stop to crack butterflies a bit for some more air at idle. Yes JWay, I am doing the tuning with Holey software on the water. Actually more or less I am just grabbing the throttle and the ECU will do most of the thinking. I have O2 sensors in my exhaust risers so it can run closed loop/learn. Currently I am not running the cam sync sensor so it is in batch/waste fire mode. I will mess around with going sequential next season after becoming more accustomed to doing so. Am I going to squeeze every last HP out of this thing? More than likely not without putting it on a dyno with an advanced tuner at the controls. It can be perfectly tuned in dyno conditions but the tune that matters to me is the one learned in the boat in its operating environment with all driven accessories and practical performance manifolds, not dyno headers. Heck, I wish there was a place I could dyno a fully dressed marine engine just the way it would sit in the boat for "real" numbers. Yes the engine has the potential for those fantastic numbers but I shouldn't be far behind. I'm a realist and this thing is still one stout 540 and will still put one heck of a smile on my face and that is what it is all about.
08-20-2014, 08:58 PM
#370
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After a run I noticed my engine was running at about 99 degrees which was not allowing the computer to go into Learn mode. My learn mode was set to kick in at 100 degrees.
This is my take on it. Any learning it does at 80 degrees will soon be over written when the motor warms up to 100 degrees and revisits the same rpm ranges. The only RPM range my motor visits until it reaches 100 degrees temp is idle. So if I allow it to idle for a bit at 100 degrees engine temp it should relearn that area. This is all new to me so I welcome any input.
I am thinking that I will get the boat out this weekend with a full tank of gas and let the computer learn all day. Then i will pull my O2 sensor and run open loop. Anyone have any opinions on that idea?
This is my take on it. Any learning it does at 80 degrees will soon be over written when the motor warms up to 100 degrees and revisits the same rpm ranges. The only RPM range my motor visits until it reaches 100 degrees temp is idle. So if I allow it to idle for a bit at 100 degrees engine temp it should relearn that area. This is all new to me so I welcome any input.
I am thinking that I will get the boat out this weekend with a full tank of gas and let the computer learn all day. Then i will pull my O2 sensor and run open loop. Anyone have any opinions on that idea?
