Off the shelf cam options for marine engines
02-19-2016, 03:05 PM
#561
Gold Member
Gold Member
Wasn't about getting the whip out. Just thought you might have some insight on what you did to remedy the instability. I'm kinda in left field at this point cause I don't know anyone running larger core/ lifters in these marine engines. For myself and other readers just like to know where to turn to make it work. It's not like there are any 55/60mm shelf cams.
Ps. 55mm solid roller, 904 morel lifter
02-19-2016, 03:14 PM
#563
Gold Member
Gold Member
02-19-2016, 04:11 PM
#564
We've been running solid rollers in our boats since the early 90s. I've run the most aggresive lobes Comp, Ultradyne and Bullet make in the .785 lift and under. Once we got the right lifter,spring pressure, pushrod and rocker, we didn't have any problems. At one point I ran 350lb seat with 1000 open pressure at 7500rpm. I can't see why there would be a problem with a hydraulic roller if the proper parts are used to control it. I'm curious about some of these issues, what were the combinations ?
Last edited by GPM; 02-19-2016 at 04:37 PM.
02-19-2016, 06:44 PM
#565
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Wasn't about getting the whip out. Just thought you might have some insight on what you did to remedy the instability. I'm kinda in left field at this point cause I don't know anyone running larger core/ lifters in these marine engines. For myself and other readers just like to know where to turn to make it work. It's not like there are any 55/60mm shelf cams.
02-19-2016, 07:00 PM
#566
Registered
I have heard that Carson Brummet, has had nothing but issues with hydraulics, morels, johnsons, didnt matter. Turbo motors he builds don't get alot of duration, but they had alot of lift (for a hydraulic setup). After suffering too many issues, he has since gone back to solids, and the issues have went away from my understanding. With every product, there are design limitations. You can't use a screwdriver, to pry open a safe. You'll just break the screwdriver. Same goes for camshafts. If there werent design limitations, we wouldn't need big body lifters, 60mm cams. Valve lift makes power in a big block chevy. If there were no limitations, why aren't I running a .750 lift .842 lifter'd 236 duration hydraulic cam, instead of a .630 lift cam?
Theres just so many variables. Hydraulics, while have came a long way, are still not solids. A 730 lift long duration cam in a 632ci , might live a long time at 7500rpm. Cam a 454 with duration levels to suit 6000rpm, and 730 lift, and a hydraulic lifter, it might last 5 minutes. Also what works in a drag car, or boat, that isn't sitting there at 6000+ rpm for several minutes at a time, is quite different than what happens when its there for a second at a time making a pass.
I have a question. Lets say you have a combo on the dyno, and you are running say, 10-40 engine oil. Say the oil temp is 160 degrees on the dyno, and you begin the pull at 3500, and pull an engine to 6500, doing a sweep run. The oil is fairly viscous at that temperature, and some valvetrain stability issues, may not show up with as much intensity, or even be existant, as you are sweeping thru the rpm levels at a very quick time.
Now, what happens when you are out on the water, and you are in your 41 apache. Your tachs are steady at 6300rpm, you oil temp is getting up to say, 230 degrees, and getting quite thin. The oil inside the lifter, is possibly capable of bleeding out easier now? Things start getting weird, slack forms in the valvetrain, still on the throttles holding it WFO, not letting off. Stuff starts losing control. Spring pressures are going down, as the coils are heating up big time. Lifter starts lofting slightly off the lobe, more slack in the valvetrain....valves start bouncing off their seats, valves now lose seat time to transfer heat do to valve bounce, valves get really hot...Still on the throttles WFO....
Is there possibly any relation to the concept, of oil temperature and lifter bleed down rate/viscosity, and possible loss of valvetrain control, from temperature of the valve spring, causing a reduction in spring pressure?
According to this PAC spring chart, you are losing around 40-60 lbs of open pressure, when comparing the spring at room temperature, to 250-300 degress. I certainly wouldn't think, that if you have oil temp at 220-230, that the spring is running COOLER than the temp of the oil being sprayed on them.
Is this something you might see on the dyno? I don't know. My guess is its not something you can determine from a computer when designing a valvetrain from scratch. I'd like to think this is where cam companies spend time with spintron testing, whether a cam is going in a marine/endurance engine, or a bracket car, what spring pressures are needed to control the setup, when is too much, when is too little, what is stable, what isnt, and so on. Seems like no matter what product, what theory, what design, is ultimately considered a success, is when it actually lives in the field it has been designed to do so. We can make excuses all day long, but at the end of the day, if its failed, it simply isn't a success.
GPM, as you stated "Once we got the right lifter,spring pressure, pushrod and rocker, we didn't have any problems" , is a great statement. The question is, what happened BEFORE you found the right lifter, the right spring pressure, pushrod, and rocker? I'm assuming, not good things. Most guys here, are paying for someone to provide them with the right recipe. If they have had failures, than it wasn't the right recipe, and finding it is the key. However, the real problem lies in the issue that if the guy you paid, won't work with you to find that right recipe after the fact, then , the whole project is a failure.
What I have found as a common denominator from not ONE, but several engine builders who have suffered from pounded in valve seats, morel lifters with forks spreading, rocker arm issues, are they were using the same person for valvetrain components and setups. This wasn't one engine, one builder. Talking multiple builders, and multiple engines, and some even rebuilt , and exact issue showed up again as a repeat, as there was no desire by the supplier, to find the root cause of the initial issues. The other coincidence, was these issues showed their faces, at very close time intervals in the several engines.
Theres just so many variables. Hydraulics, while have came a long way, are still not solids. A 730 lift long duration cam in a 632ci , might live a long time at 7500rpm. Cam a 454 with duration levels to suit 6000rpm, and 730 lift, and a hydraulic lifter, it might last 5 minutes. Also what works in a drag car, or boat, that isn't sitting there at 6000+ rpm for several minutes at a time, is quite different than what happens when its there for a second at a time making a pass.
I have a question. Lets say you have a combo on the dyno, and you are running say, 10-40 engine oil. Say the oil temp is 160 degrees on the dyno, and you begin the pull at 3500, and pull an engine to 6500, doing a sweep run. The oil is fairly viscous at that temperature, and some valvetrain stability issues, may not show up with as much intensity, or even be existant, as you are sweeping thru the rpm levels at a very quick time.
Now, what happens when you are out on the water, and you are in your 41 apache. Your tachs are steady at 6300rpm, you oil temp is getting up to say, 230 degrees, and getting quite thin. The oil inside the lifter, is possibly capable of bleeding out easier now? Things start getting weird, slack forms in the valvetrain, still on the throttles holding it WFO, not letting off. Stuff starts losing control. Spring pressures are going down, as the coils are heating up big time. Lifter starts lofting slightly off the lobe, more slack in the valvetrain....valves start bouncing off their seats, valves now lose seat time to transfer heat do to valve bounce, valves get really hot...Still on the throttles WFO....
Is there possibly any relation to the concept, of oil temperature and lifter bleed down rate/viscosity, and possible loss of valvetrain control, from temperature of the valve spring, causing a reduction in spring pressure?
According to this PAC spring chart, you are losing around 40-60 lbs of open pressure, when comparing the spring at room temperature, to 250-300 degress. I certainly wouldn't think, that if you have oil temp at 220-230, that the spring is running COOLER than the temp of the oil being sprayed on them.
Is this something you might see on the dyno? I don't know. My guess is its not something you can determine from a computer when designing a valvetrain from scratch. I'd like to think this is where cam companies spend time with spintron testing, whether a cam is going in a marine/endurance engine, or a bracket car, what spring pressures are needed to control the setup, when is too much, when is too little, what is stable, what isnt, and so on. Seems like no matter what product, what theory, what design, is ultimately considered a success, is when it actually lives in the field it has been designed to do so. We can make excuses all day long, but at the end of the day, if its failed, it simply isn't a success.
GPM, as you stated "Once we got the right lifter,spring pressure, pushrod and rocker, we didn't have any problems" , is a great statement. The question is, what happened BEFORE you found the right lifter, the right spring pressure, pushrod, and rocker? I'm assuming, not good things. Most guys here, are paying for someone to provide them with the right recipe. If they have had failures, than it wasn't the right recipe, and finding it is the key. However, the real problem lies in the issue that if the guy you paid, won't work with you to find that right recipe after the fact, then , the whole project is a failure.
What I have found as a common denominator from not ONE, but several engine builders who have suffered from pounded in valve seats, morel lifters with forks spreading, rocker arm issues, are they were using the same person for valvetrain components and setups. This wasn't one engine, one builder. Talking multiple builders, and multiple engines, and some even rebuilt , and exact issue showed up again as a repeat, as there was no desire by the supplier, to find the root cause of the initial issues. The other coincidence, was these issues showed their faces, at very close time intervals in the several engines.
02-19-2016, 07:02 PM
#567
Haxby, would it be possible to find out what the specs were on these cams, what the spring pressure was, pushrod and were they N/A or boosted ?
I'm just curious how they compare to what I've run.
I'm just curious how they compare to what I've run.
Last edited by GPM; 02-19-2016 at 07:28 PM.
02-19-2016, 07:15 PM
#568
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
I have heard that Carson Brummet, has had nothing but issues with hydraulics, morels, johnsons, didnt matter. Turbo motors he builds don't get alot of duration, but they had alot of lift (for a hydraulic setup). After suffering too many issues, he has since gone back to solids, and the issues have went away from my understanding. With every product, there are design limitations. You can't use a screwdriver, to pry open a safe. You'll just break the screwdriver. Same goes for camshafts. If there werent design limitations, we wouldn't need big body lifters, 60mm cams. Valve lift makes power in a big block chevy. If there were no limitations, why aren't I running a .750 lift .842 lifter'd 236 duration hydraulic cam, instead of a .630 lift cam?
Theres just so many variables. Hydraulics, while have came a long way, are still not solids. A 730 lift long duration cam in a 632ci , might live a long time at 7500rpm. Cam a 454 with duration levels to suit 6000rpm, and 730 lift, and a hydraulic lifter, it might last 5 minutes. Also what works in a drag car, or boat, that isn't sitting there at 6000+ rpm for several minutes at a time, is quite different than what happens when its there for a second at a time making a pass.
I have a question. Lets say you have a combo on the dyno, and you are running say, 10-40 engine oil. Say the oil temp is 160 degrees on the dyno, and you begin the pull at 3500, and pull an engine to 6500, doing a sweep run. The oil is fairly viscous at that temperature, and some valvetrain stability issues, may not show up with as much intensity, or even be existant, as you are sweeping thru the rpm levels at a very quick time.
Now, what happens when you are out on the water, and you are in your 41 apache. Your tachs are steady at 6300rpm, you oil temp is getting up to say, 230 degrees, and getting quite thin. The oil inside the lifter, is possibly capable of bleeding out easier now? Things start getting weird, slack forms in the valvetrain, still on the throttles holding it WFO, not letting off. Stuff starts losing control. Spring pressures are going down, as the coils are heating up big time. Lifter starts lofting slightly off the lobe, more slack in the valvetrain....valves start bouncing off their seats, valves now lose seat time to transfer heat do to valve bounce, valves get really hot...Still on the throttles WFO....
Is there possibly any relation to the concept, of oil temperature and lifter bleed down rate/viscosity, and possible loss of valvetrain control, from temperature of the valve spring, causing a reduction in spring pressure?
According to this PAC spring chart, you are losing around 40-60 lbs of open pressure, when comparing the spring at room temperature, to 250-300 degress. I certainly wouldn't think, that if you have oil temp at 220-230, that the spring is running COOLER than the temp of the oil being sprayed on them.
Is this something you might see on the dyno? I don't know. My guess is its not something you can determine from a computer when designing a valvetrain from scratch. I'd like to think this is where cam companies spend time with spintron testing, whether a cam is going in a marine/endurance engine, or a bracket car, what spring pressures are needed to control the setup, when is too much, when is too little, what is stable, what isnt, and so on. Seems like no matter what product, what theory, what design, is ultimately considered a success, is when it actually lives in the field it has been designed to do so. We can make excuses all day long, but at the end of the day, if its failed, it simply isn't a success.
GPM, as you stated "Once we got the right lifter,spring pressure, pushrod and rocker, we didn't have any problems" , is a great statement. The question is, what happened BEFORE you found the right lifter, the right spring pressure, pushrod, and rocker? I'm assuming, not good things. Most guys here, are paying for someone to provide them with the right recipe. If they have had failures, than it wasn't the right recipe, and finding it is the key. However, the real problem lies in the issue that if the guy you paid, won't work with you to find that right recipe after the fact, then , the whole project is a failure.
What I have found as a common denominator from not ONE, but several engine builders who have suffered from pounded in valve seats, morel lifters with forks spreading, rocker arm issues, are they were using the same person for valvetrain components and setups. This wasn't one engine, one builder. Talking multiple builders, and multiple engines, and some even rebuilt , and exact issue showed up again as a repeat, as there was no desire by the supplier, to find the root cause of the initial issues. The other coincidence, was these issues showed their faces, at very close time intervals in the several engines.
Theres just so many variables. Hydraulics, while have came a long way, are still not solids. A 730 lift long duration cam in a 632ci , might live a long time at 7500rpm. Cam a 454 with duration levels to suit 6000rpm, and 730 lift, and a hydraulic lifter, it might last 5 minutes. Also what works in a drag car, or boat, that isn't sitting there at 6000+ rpm for several minutes at a time, is quite different than what happens when its there for a second at a time making a pass.
I have a question. Lets say you have a combo on the dyno, and you are running say, 10-40 engine oil. Say the oil temp is 160 degrees on the dyno, and you begin the pull at 3500, and pull an engine to 6500, doing a sweep run. The oil is fairly viscous at that temperature, and some valvetrain stability issues, may not show up with as much intensity, or even be existant, as you are sweeping thru the rpm levels at a very quick time.
Now, what happens when you are out on the water, and you are in your 41 apache. Your tachs are steady at 6300rpm, you oil temp is getting up to say, 230 degrees, and getting quite thin. The oil inside the lifter, is possibly capable of bleeding out easier now? Things start getting weird, slack forms in the valvetrain, still on the throttles holding it WFO, not letting off. Stuff starts losing control. Spring pressures are going down, as the coils are heating up big time. Lifter starts lofting slightly off the lobe, more slack in the valvetrain....valves start bouncing off their seats, valves now lose seat time to transfer heat do to valve bounce, valves get really hot...Still on the throttles WFO....
Is there possibly any relation to the concept, of oil temperature and lifter bleed down rate/viscosity, and possible loss of valvetrain control, from temperature of the valve spring, causing a reduction in spring pressure?
According to this PAC spring chart, you are losing around 40-60 lbs of open pressure, when comparing the spring at room temperature, to 250-300 degress. I certainly wouldn't think, that if you have oil temp at 220-230, that the spring is running COOLER than the temp of the oil being sprayed on them.
Is this something you might see on the dyno? I don't know. My guess is its not something you can determine from a computer when designing a valvetrain from scratch. I'd like to think this is where cam companies spend time with spintron testing, whether a cam is going in a marine/endurance engine, or a bracket car, what spring pressures are needed to control the setup, when is too much, when is too little, what is stable, what isnt, and so on. Seems like no matter what product, what theory, what design, is ultimately considered a success, is when it actually lives in the field it has been designed to do so. We can make excuses all day long, but at the end of the day, if its failed, it simply isn't a success.
GPM, as you stated "Once we got the right lifter,spring pressure, pushrod and rocker, we didn't have any problems" , is a great statement. The question is, what happened BEFORE you found the right lifter, the right spring pressure, pushrod, and rocker? I'm assuming, not good things. Most guys here, are paying for someone to provide them with the right recipe. If they have had failures, than it wasn't the right recipe, and finding it is the key. However, the real problem lies in the issue that if the guy you paid, won't work with you to find that right recipe after the fact, then , the whole project is a failure.
What I have found as a common denominator from not ONE, but several engine builders who have suffered from pounded in valve seats, morel lifters with forks spreading, rocker arm issues, are they were using the same person for valvetrain components and setups. This wasn't one engine, one builder. Talking multiple builders, and multiple engines, and some even rebuilt , and exact issue showed up again as a repeat, as there was no desire by the supplier, to find the root cause of the initial issues. The other coincidence, was these issues showed their faces, at very close time intervals in the several engines.
02-19-2016, 07:29 PM
#570
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Maybe most of these camshaft problems are related to the hydraulic lifters. Bleeding down making valve train un happy when the valve crashes the seat.
