Cam and valvetrain longevity....??? low duration high lift...
10-04-2016, 11:46 PM
#1211
Charter Member#568
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What I'm getting at is lets suppose Tim has the hardness checked and comes back with a given number. Without knowledge of what the industry seems to think is correct it doesn't help you. I'm sure it varies from manufacturer to manufacturer as well. If there was any truth to the claims it would basically amount to a manufacturing defect and I have doubts they would do that for a customer, but maybe... After all the name on my cams says Cam Motion- it's their reputation. There is really no reason to speculate on this. If someone thinks they have a cam with actual quality issues it should be sent back to Cam Motion to analyze. But then this would be a 3 page thread and what fun is that?
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Straight bottoms and flat decks
Straight bottoms and flat decks
Last edited by bck; 10-04-2016 at 11:49 PM.
10-05-2016, 12:14 AM
#1212
Registered
What I'm getting at is lets suppose Tim has the hardness checked and comes back with a given number. Without knowledge of what the industry seems to think is correct it doesn't help you. I'm sure it varies from manufacturer to manufacturer as well. If there was any truth to the claims it would basically amount to a manufacturing defect and I have doubts they would do that for a customer, but maybe... After all the name on my cams says Cam Motion- it's their reputation. There is really no reason to speculate on this. If someone thinks they have a cam with actual quality issues it should be sent back to Cam Motion to analyze. But then this would be a 3 page thread and what fun is that?
Lets say tim sends his cam back to cam motion, for a "checkup". They could either say, oops, we screwed up. Sorry. by the way, let all your friends know, we screwed up, and made it right for you. We'll replace those dozens of camshafts at no charge. Sorry this cost you thousands.
or, they could say "everything looks good on our end, you probably dont have enough spring pressure, or you might wanna run a zddp additive in your oil, have a good day".
Whether or not, this is even a hardness issue, is to be determined though, like you said. I've talked with several cam grinders, well, actually only 3 . But, the consensus was, that for a marine endurance engine, they would not use a .400 lift , 241 degree lobe. Why? Because the lobe profile is simply too aggressive. Theres no magic trickery they can do, that can defy physics.
What happens when you run aggressive lobes, in an endurance engine? Stuff breaks, or simply doesn't last as long. Some guys, don't care about that. Some guys, like running their engines on the edge, and are fine with rebuilding them often.
The problem arises, when the person selling them their parts, makes false claims about how that product will hold up in the long run. Bob Madera does not have a dyno. He does not have a spintron. He does not build engines, and go and run them out on the water, and tear down after 200 hours to inspect. IMO, each camshaft he designs, is nothing more than an educated guess, based on how it will work out in the field. So, in essence, you, the customer, are his testing ground for his product. Which, in some cases, isn''t necessarily a horrible thing the motorsport hobby. However, Bob, has proven, that he does not accept responsibility, for the failures. If a lifter fails, its the wrong oil, wrong setup, or its the lifters fault. If the cam lobes wear, its the builders fault. if the engine doesnt make the power, its the builders fault, tuners fault, dynos fault. He has lied to his own best customers, when failures have showed their face. AS stated, 50 times already, there have been builders, his best buds for a while, who were experiencing valvetrain failures. The chit hit the fan, when each of these builders, finally got around to talking about what was going on. It was then, they asked,
"well wtf, you had that same exact issue too? Well why then when I told bob about it, he acted like he never heard of such a thing before????". Get in touch with Brian Orlandi, Haxby, MER Mark, ask them about whats really taken place offline and behind the scenes.
This thread, isn't just about a cam hardness issue. It wasn't even started about that. It started out, with Tim asking about who's had good long term luck with high lift short duration marine kinetics hydraulic rollers. So far, I have yet to see a single person, say they have exceeded 100 trouble free hours, with a cam close to what tim is running. And we are at page 122.
10-05-2016, 05:18 AM
#1214
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Absolutely not the case at all, Please don't make this something it is not, He is a friend of mine, has a great track record, and is local to me, he does great headwork, his dad ports for many local builders for 40 years.... why would I not do this local to me? Joe has been great help, and not one time did I say he has not or would not listen to him, but I am paying my buddy to do heads, port heads, intakes, flow things and come up with cam specs. He made great power with Vintage's engine, another friend has a very powerful and reliable set of 502's recently from him, and many others over the years. yes is he a Ford guy? yep... so am I.... he has done HUNDREDS of BBC over the years...
In no way have I moved on from others advice at all... especially Joes, so please don't say I "gave Joe the middle finger" that's 100% false.
In no way have I moved on from others advice at all... especially Joes, so please don't say I "gave Joe the middle finger" that's 100% false.
10-05-2016, 05:19 AM
#1215
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Well sending my head to AFR to check was a chit show... I had VIDEO of calibration and use of the Sunnin gauge, and also pin set.... but Bob said AFR's readings showed mine to be wrong... funny I never saw them results...
What I'm getting at is lets suppose Tim has the hardness checked and comes back with a given number. Without knowledge of what the industry seems to think is correct it doesn't help you. I'm sure it varies from manufacturer to manufacturer as well. If there was any truth to the claims it would basically amount to a manufacturing defect and I have doubts they would do that for a customer, but maybe... After all the name on my cams says Cam Motion- it's their reputation. There is really no reason to speculate on this. If someone thinks they have a cam with actual quality issues it should be sent back to Cam Motion to analyze. But then this would be a 3 page thread and what fun is that?
10-05-2016, 05:24 AM
#1216
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100% truth, BCK... you might wanna check stuff out or replace them cams, I was told to last year before I saw hard proof, I took a chance and ran mine all season, LUCKILY Joe talked me into checking and here we are.... now I have to redo heads up because of Bob great long term combo.... I am glad I got it before I had to hear "told ya so" when a valve hit a piston and wiped out a shortblock costing me even more money...
I have been around just long enough to know, that , well, alot of people in this industry, are full of chit.
Lets say tim sends his cam back to cam motion, for a "checkup". They could either say, oops, we screwed up. Sorry. by the way, let all your friends know, we screwed up, and made it right for you. We'll replace those dozens of camshafts at no charge. Sorry this cost you thousands.
or, they could say "everything looks good on our end, you probably dont have enough spring pressure, or you might wanna run a zddp additive in your oil, have a good day".
Whether or not, this is even a hardness issue, is to be determined though, like you said. I've talked with several cam grinders, well, actually only 3 . But, the consensus was, that for a marine endurance engine, they would not use a .400 lift , 241 degree lobe. Why? Because the lobe profile is simply too aggressive. Theres no magic trickery they can do, that can defy physics.
What happens when you run aggressive lobes, in an endurance engine? Stuff breaks, or simply doesn't last as long. Some guys, don't care about that. Some guys, like running their engines on the edge, and are fine with rebuilding them often.
The problem arises, when the person selling them their parts, makes false claims about how that product will hold up in the long run. Bob Madera does not have a dyno. He does not have a spintron. He does not build engines, and go and run them out on the water, and tear down after 200 hours to inspect. IMO, each camshaft he designs, is nothing more than an educated guess, based on how it will work out in the field. So, in essence, you, the customer, are his testing ground for his product. Which, in some cases, isn''t necessarily a horrible thing the motorsport hobby. However, Bob, has proven, that he does not accept responsibility, for the failures. If a lifter fails, its the wrong oil, wrong setup, or its the lifters fault. If the cam lobes wear, its the builders fault. if the engine doesnt make the power, its the builders fault, tuners fault, dynos fault. He has lied to his own best customers, when failures have showed their face. AS stated, 50 times already, there have been builders, his best buds for a while, who were experiencing valvetrain failures. The chit hit the fan, when each of these builders, finally got around to talking about what was going on. It was then, they asked,
"well wtf, you had that same exact issue too? Well why then when I told bob about it, he acted like he never heard of such a thing before????". Get in touch with Brian Orlandi, Haxby, MER Mark, ask them about whats really taken place offline and behind the scenes.
This thread, isn't just about a cam hardness issue. It wasn't even started about that. It started out, with Tim asking about who's had good long term luck with high lift short duration marine kinetics hydraulic rollers. So far, I have yet to see a single person, say they have exceeded 100 trouble free hours, with a cam close to what tim is running. And we are at page 122.
Lets say tim sends his cam back to cam motion, for a "checkup". They could either say, oops, we screwed up. Sorry. by the way, let all your friends know, we screwed up, and made it right for you. We'll replace those dozens of camshafts at no charge. Sorry this cost you thousands.
or, they could say "everything looks good on our end, you probably dont have enough spring pressure, or you might wanna run a zddp additive in your oil, have a good day".
Whether or not, this is even a hardness issue, is to be determined though, like you said. I've talked with several cam grinders, well, actually only 3 . But, the consensus was, that for a marine endurance engine, they would not use a .400 lift , 241 degree lobe. Why? Because the lobe profile is simply too aggressive. Theres no magic trickery they can do, that can defy physics.
What happens when you run aggressive lobes, in an endurance engine? Stuff breaks, or simply doesn't last as long. Some guys, don't care about that. Some guys, like running their engines on the edge, and are fine with rebuilding them often.
The problem arises, when the person selling them their parts, makes false claims about how that product will hold up in the long run. Bob Madera does not have a dyno. He does not have a spintron. He does not build engines, and go and run them out on the water, and tear down after 200 hours to inspect. IMO, each camshaft he designs, is nothing more than an educated guess, based on how it will work out in the field. So, in essence, you, the customer, are his testing ground for his product. Which, in some cases, isn''t necessarily a horrible thing the motorsport hobby. However, Bob, has proven, that he does not accept responsibility, for the failures. If a lifter fails, its the wrong oil, wrong setup, or its the lifters fault. If the cam lobes wear, its the builders fault. if the engine doesnt make the power, its the builders fault, tuners fault, dynos fault. He has lied to his own best customers, when failures have showed their face. AS stated, 50 times already, there have been builders, his best buds for a while, who were experiencing valvetrain failures. The chit hit the fan, when each of these builders, finally got around to talking about what was going on. It was then, they asked,
"well wtf, you had that same exact issue too? Well why then when I told bob about it, he acted like he never heard of such a thing before????". Get in touch with Brian Orlandi, Haxby, MER Mark, ask them about whats really taken place offline and behind the scenes.
This thread, isn't just about a cam hardness issue. It wasn't even started about that. It started out, with Tim asking about who's had good long term luck with high lift short duration marine kinetics hydraulic rollers. So far, I have yet to see a single person, say they have exceeded 100 trouble free hours, with a cam close to what tim is running. And we are at page 122.
10-05-2016, 06:16 AM
#1217
Registered
I ran my MK cams for one season then pulled them due to abnormal lobe wear and the engines didn't make the power I was expecting. They kinda went flat after 5000 rpms.
Motors
605 inch blower motors with brodix bb3 xtraO heads.
Cam
254/262 at 50 duration 705/680 lift
The cam doctors numbers were farther off than what I would have expected. Cam doctor showed the cam to be larger by a few degrees at 50.
Motors
605 inch blower motors with brodix bb3 xtraO heads.
Cam
254/262 at 50 duration 705/680 lift
The cam doctors numbers were farther off than what I would have expected. Cam doctor showed the cam to be larger by a few degrees at 50.
http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8785
Here is what we have noticed when using different size followers on our Audie Cam Pro and in our cam degree dial indicator setup.
When going from a .750 wheel to a .810 wheel (which are typical wheel sizes for .842/.875 to .904 lifters) we usually see an increase of 1.0° to 1.75° duration at .020, .050, and .200.
When going from a .750 wheel to a .850 wheel (typical for .937 lifters) we usually see an increase of 1.5° to 2.25° duration at .020, .050 and .200.
10-05-2016, 06:27 AM
#1218
Registered
I remember that. The custom heads built for marine spec per bob, that even AFR themselves recommend honing the guides to proper spec for marine use.
10-05-2016, 06:37 AM
#1220
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[ATTACH=CONFIG]560141[/ATTACH]This is why i was upset at not seeing anything close to 700 HP...
Another promise broken, I had 600 hp before so I thought I was getting a home run.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]560140[/ATTACH]
Another promise broken, I had 600 hp before so I thought I was getting a home run.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]560140[/ATTACH]
Last edited by Full Force; 10-05-2016 at 06:44 AM.
