Cam and valvetrain longevity....??? low duration high lift...
11-29-2016, 12:56 PM
#1711
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Tim you are such a douche. I don't think it's a Johnson sucks factor. Why is it a hate Johnson post. How about a let's look at all factors and try and determine the cause. Jumping to any 1 conclusion has led everyone astray. Let's look at all factors involved and maybe help a future boater in the process. Maybe it happens to be Johnson .700 wheel on a high lift low duration. Maybe the hardening. Maybe a combo of several of these factors.
11-29-2016, 12:58 PM
#1712
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This is Randy from Johnson Lifters. I've tried my best to stay out of here but I keep getting numerous emails, text messages, and phone calls about this thread. So here I am to share my .02 about the lifters. I'm not going to get involved or state my opinion about the rest of this nightmare. Take it as you wish, sales pitch or whatever. I'm just a motor head that was fortunate enough to be employed at a company that makes parts for a hobby I'm passionate about. Our parts and quality reflect our passion for the industry.
The .700 vs .750 roller debate has been going on for years. Both work, and both will break if things are out of control. My company after years of testing with GM, Mercruiser, cam manufacturers (Crower, Isky, Cam Motion etc.), and numerous highly respected engine builders has decided to stick with a .700 roller and fully shrouded body in .842 diameter bodies. I say fully shrouded but there's still a 45* relief cut that clears above 280* duration cams. The gains you receive in force on the axle/needles, pressure angle, etc. are very small. You don't start seeing measurable benefits from larger rollers until you get into the .810+ diameter stuff. If you want to look at the raw physics, sure the .750 roller is "better", but at a cost of body integrity. The problem we've found with the open body is the ears or forks deflect under high loads. That deflection can and will eventually fatigue (work-harden) to a point of fracture. If you don't want to trust me spend 15min browsing google...there's plenty of pictures floating around. Again this is only an argument for .842 diameter stuff where the cross section of the ears/forks come into play. You start talking about the .904 and larger bodies then by all means go with the largest roller and axle assembly you can stuff in there.
Anyway, with all that said it's not the cause of failure here. If the lobe profile exceeded the design capabilities of the bearing one of the 32 bearings would have failed at this point. They did not and are probably 100% functional. I'm still anxiously waiting on these to be sent in by Tim. I'll be reporting what I find with full pictures and microscope shots. I hope that eventually this gets all sorted out by the parties involved now. I'm sure Tim feels the same LOL!
I do have to ask...what exactly does a cup car with solid rollers have anything to do with the topic at hand here? Do you have any idea the amount of time spent on SpinTron's to develop those lobe profiles and valvetrain? I'd hope a roller lifter can keep up, forked body or not, where a flat tappet has done the job for decades. Here's a more apples to apples comparison. These guys are using the same lifter used in Tim's engine with a .700 roller and more than 230* duration. No issue to date.
http://www.arcaracing.com/articles/2...-two-look-like
The .700 vs .750 roller debate has been going on for years. Both work, and both will break if things are out of control. My company after years of testing with GM, Mercruiser, cam manufacturers (Crower, Isky, Cam Motion etc.), and numerous highly respected engine builders has decided to stick with a .700 roller and fully shrouded body in .842 diameter bodies. I say fully shrouded but there's still a 45* relief cut that clears above 280* duration cams. The gains you receive in force on the axle/needles, pressure angle, etc. are very small. You don't start seeing measurable benefits from larger rollers until you get into the .810+ diameter stuff. If you want to look at the raw physics, sure the .750 roller is "better", but at a cost of body integrity. The problem we've found with the open body is the ears or forks deflect under high loads. That deflection can and will eventually fatigue (work-harden) to a point of fracture. If you don't want to trust me spend 15min browsing google...there's plenty of pictures floating around. Again this is only an argument for .842 diameter stuff where the cross section of the ears/forks come into play. You start talking about the .904 and larger bodies then by all means go with the largest roller and axle assembly you can stuff in there.
Anyway, with all that said it's not the cause of failure here. If the lobe profile exceeded the design capabilities of the bearing one of the 32 bearings would have failed at this point. They did not and are probably 100% functional. I'm still anxiously waiting on these to be sent in by Tim. I'll be reporting what I find with full pictures and microscope shots. I hope that eventually this gets all sorted out by the parties involved now. I'm sure Tim feels the same LOL!
I do have to ask...what exactly does a cup car with solid rollers have anything to do with the topic at hand here? Do you have any idea the amount of time spent on SpinTron's to develop those lobe profiles and valvetrain? I'd hope a roller lifter can keep up, forked body or not, where a flat tappet has done the job for decades. Here's a more apples to apples comparison. These guys are using the same lifter used in Tim's engine with a .700 roller and more than 230* duration. No issue to date.
http://www.arcaracing.com/articles/2...-two-look-like
11-29-2016, 12:59 PM
#1713
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So now the johnsons suck even though many have he success there also?
If crower, Isky and Teague are using them for the last few years I can't say they are suck lifters, many guys I know use morel also with no issues as we have seen guys state earlier in threads, not trying to get into a pissing match with a friend or anyone here but now it's a hate Johnson post with no proof of anything
If crower, Isky and Teague are using them for the last few years I can't say they are suck lifters, many guys I know use morel also with no issues as we have seen guys state earlier in threads, not trying to get into a pissing match with a friend or anyone here but now it's a hate Johnson post with no proof of anything
Im not saying they are a bad lifter, i have never used them.
But i also know, that just because isky, and crower took them on, doesnt mean they are now the new best lifter. Most of these companies are looking at bottom lines. If they can get a better price on a product, they will take on that product line.
For years I have heard and read about all the benefits of a larger diameter wheel. But now all of a sudden , we are going backwards to a smaller diameter wheel because a company says the lifter body is stronger.
Do you know that morels lifter bodys are made from alloy bar stock? Their wheels are heat treated 8620 steel? And 9310 axle ?
Do you know what the wheels on the johnsons are made from ? My source tells me they are made from 1010, same material oem lifters use in mass production.
Theres alot more backstory to why certain companies are now using these lifters, and how some no longer could get direct accounts with morel.
11-29-2016, 01:04 PM
#1714
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Whos had good luck with the johnsons?
Im not saying they are a bad lifter, i have never used them.
But i also know, that just because isky, and crower took them on, doesnt mean they are now the new best lifter. Most of these companies are looking at bottom lines. If they can get a better price on a product, they will take on that product line.
For years I have heard and read about all the benefits of a larger diameter wheel. But now all of a sudden , we are going backwards to a smaller diameter wheel because a company says the lifter body is stronger.
Do you know that morels lifter bodys are made from alloy bar stock? Their wheels are heat treated 8620 steel? And 9310 axle ?
Do you know what the wheels on the johnsons are made from ? My source tells me they are made from 1010, same material oem lifters use in mass production.
Theres alot more backstory to why certain companies are now using these lifters, and how some no longer could get direct accounts with morel.
Im not saying they are a bad lifter, i have never used them.
But i also know, that just because isky, and crower took them on, doesnt mean they are now the new best lifter. Most of these companies are looking at bottom lines. If they can get a better price on a product, they will take on that product line.
For years I have heard and read about all the benefits of a larger diameter wheel. But now all of a sudden , we are going backwards to a smaller diameter wheel because a company says the lifter body is stronger.
Do you know that morels lifter bodys are made from alloy bar stock? Their wheels are heat treated 8620 steel? And 9310 axle ?
Do you know what the wheels on the johnsons are made from ? My source tells me they are made from 1010, same material oem lifters use in mass production.
Theres alot more backstory to why certain companies are now using these lifters, and how some no longer could get direct accounts with morel.
We've been selling to these guys for years. Nothing new. Been doing this for longer than Morel has been a brand.
The backstory is easy. They were having issues with Morel and switched. End of story. Call and ask.
11-29-2016, 01:04 PM
#1715
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Lol now I'm a douche again, ok it just looks like now it's the lifters fault and we still do t
Know... I tried explaining it but failed what i was told at least ... Oh well
Guess I'm a douche put yourself in my position for a second and see how frustrating it is to have 100 different answers weekly.. Hard to know wtf to do and it's my $ getting wasted..
Know... I tried explaining it but failed what i was told at least ... Oh well
Guess I'm a douche put yourself in my position for a second and see how frustrating it is to have 100 different answers weekly.. Hard to know wtf to do and it's my $ getting wasted..
Tim you are such a douche. I don't think it's a Johnson sucks factor. Why is it a hate Johnson post. How about a let's look at all factors and try and determine the cause. Jumping to any 1 conclusion has led everyone astray. Let's look at all factors involved and maybe help a future boater in the process. Maybe it happens to be Johnson .700 wheel on a high lift low duration. Maybe the hardening. Maybe a combo of several of these factors.
11-29-2016, 01:10 PM
#1716
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I will get my lifters to Randy ASAP for inspections...
Joe I never said johnsons were the best or model or anyone's, just looking at all sides, and as we know the common issue is One persons cams seem to have most of all issues, still working on results the best my time allows to research and start sending g parts back to people been crazy for me here and very frustrating
I will stop posting if this bs starts to ruin friendships of mine due to heated convo
Joe I never said johnsons were the best or model or anyone's, just looking at all sides, and as we know the common issue is One persons cams seem to have most of all issues, still working on results the best my time allows to research and start sending g parts back to people been crazy for me here and very frustrating
I will stop posting if this bs starts to ruin friendships of mine due to heated convo
11-29-2016, 01:21 PM
#1717
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I'd like to know the source LOL! Seriously...1010? That wouldn't last 20min in an engine. They're made from 52100.
We've been selling to these guys for years. Nothing new. Been doing this for longer than Morel has been a brand.
The backstory is easy. They were having issues with Morel and switched. End of story. Call and ask.
We've been selling to these guys for years. Nothing new. Been doing this for longer than Morel has been a brand.
The backstory is easy. They were having issues with Morel and switched. End of story. Call and ask.
Can you explain the difference in pressure angle in actual numbers , when using a .700 wheel, vs a .750 wheel?
Last set of crower lifters my buddy bought in 2012, were NOT johnsons.
In your expert opinion, what was the cause of failure here ?
11-29-2016, 01:22 PM
#1718
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Everything needs to be looked at. The entire valve train from cam to lifters, to rockers, to springs. Something is off and so far there isn't one absolutely common denominator yet. Some from madara, as mentioned earlier some from crane? I think. Some with johnsons. Any with morels? How about .842 vs .910? How about geometry? I'm not saying it's one persons thing or another. You're not the only with the issue and as much as I don't like you I ahte to see anyone go through this bull****.
11-29-2016, 01:22 PM
#1719
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Whos had good luck with the johnsons?
Im not saying they are a bad lifter, i have never used them.
But i also know, that just because isky, and crower took them on, doesnt mean they are now the new best lifter. Most of these companies are looking at bottom lines. If they can get a better price on a product, they will take on that product line.
For years I have heard and read about all the benefits of a larger diameter wheel. But now all of a sudden , we are going backwards to a smaller diameter wheel because a company says the lifter body is stronger.
Do you know that morels lifter bodys are made from alloy bar stock? Their wheels are heat treated 8620 steel? And 9310 axle ?
Do you know what the wheels on the johnsons are made from ? My source tells me they are made from 1010, same material oem lifters use in mass production.
Theres alot more backstory to why certain companies are now using these lifters, and how some no longer could get direct accounts with morel.
Im not saying they are a bad lifter, i have never used them.
But i also know, that just because isky, and crower took them on, doesnt mean they are now the new best lifter. Most of these companies are looking at bottom lines. If they can get a better price on a product, they will take on that product line.
For years I have heard and read about all the benefits of a larger diameter wheel. But now all of a sudden , we are going backwards to a smaller diameter wheel because a company says the lifter body is stronger.
Do you know that morels lifter bodys are made from alloy bar stock? Their wheels are heat treated 8620 steel? And 9310 axle ?
Do you know what the wheels on the johnsons are made from ? My source tells me they are made from 1010, same material oem lifters use in mass production.
Theres alot more backstory to why certain companies are now using these lifters, and how some no longer could get direct accounts with morel.
11-29-2016, 01:22 PM
#1720
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You can't stop at 172 pages...it's merely just starting. And this is just one thread of many. 
