Questions and Answers for Magazine, Dennis Moore
11-14-2002, 10:35 AM
#32
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I agree with Volvo
Kentz
I think that a high quality 30 w racing oil is the best petroleum based (non synthetic oil) that you can use for a performance application.
I use 30 W Valvoline Racing Oil in most applications, 40 W VRO for really high horsepower supercharged engines (600 HP and above).
I recall reading that some nascar engine builders use 30 W petroleum based Valvoline Racing Oil (VRO) for new engines being tested on the dyno (I believe that they all use Mobil 1 for racing despite the sponsorship decals on the side of the car).
KAAMA
I tend to agree with you about the synthetic oil. Marine engines tend to run a little dirty because of the poor oil pan evacuation of exhaust gasses from not having a PCV valve. They also have a fuel dillution problem of fuel in the oil because of rich carburetion (double pumper carbs) and water dillution problems from condensation and water cooled exhaust. The oil in a marine engine needs to be changed often because it fills with these pollutants not easily removed by the oil filter.
The major advantage to synthetic oil is that it will not break down at high oil temps. Most marine engines run the oil very cold (not letting it reach the proper operating temps).
In a marine engine, although I believe that synthetic oil is superior to petroleum oil, I don't think it is worth the extra expense because of the needed frequency of oil changes.
Sincerely
Dennis Moore
FAMILY AND PERFORMANCE BOATING MAGAZINE
I think that a high quality 30 w racing oil is the best petroleum based (non synthetic oil) that you can use for a performance application.
I use 30 W Valvoline Racing Oil in most applications, 40 W VRO for really high horsepower supercharged engines (600 HP and above).
I recall reading that some nascar engine builders use 30 W petroleum based Valvoline Racing Oil (VRO) for new engines being tested on the dyno (I believe that they all use Mobil 1 for racing despite the sponsorship decals on the side of the car).
KAAMA
I tend to agree with you about the synthetic oil. Marine engines tend to run a little dirty because of the poor oil pan evacuation of exhaust gasses from not having a PCV valve. They also have a fuel dillution problem of fuel in the oil because of rich carburetion (double pumper carbs) and water dillution problems from condensation and water cooled exhaust. The oil in a marine engine needs to be changed often because it fills with these pollutants not easily removed by the oil filter.
The major advantage to synthetic oil is that it will not break down at high oil temps. Most marine engines run the oil very cold (not letting it reach the proper operating temps).
In a marine engine, although I believe that synthetic oil is superior to petroleum oil, I don't think it is worth the extra expense because of the needed frequency of oil changes.
Sincerely
Dennis Moore
FAMILY AND PERFORMANCE BOATING MAGAZINE
11-14-2002, 11:57 AM
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I used to subscribe to the school of running heavy weight oils in a high horsepower motor but have since changed my tune for several reasons. Oil technology has come a long way in the last several years, and I think for quite some time the 20W50's etc were a compromise at best. Also, brearing technology with the coatings etc has helped address issues that were past problems.
I feel now that as long as oil pressure and temps are where you like to see them why not run as LIGHT of an oil as possible? Think about it for a second, less drag on the motor, easier on the oil pump and distributor gear, better flow at operating temp and especially start-up. 10W-30 Amsoil is all I plan to run from here out...maybe thats even too heavy.
my .02
I know that in our Radial aircraft engine we used to run straight 100wt, the problem was it took forever to warm the oil up and then at take-off oil pressure was still 140psi.
Now we run 25W60, oil temps are the same and oil pressure at take-off is only 100psi, which is redline. Just an example of oil technology in aviation engines.
I feel now that as long as oil pressure and temps are where you like to see them why not run as LIGHT of an oil as possible? Think about it for a second, less drag on the motor, easier on the oil pump and distributor gear, better flow at operating temp and especially start-up. 10W-30 Amsoil is all I plan to run from here out...maybe thats even too heavy.
my .02 I know that in our Radial aircraft engine we used to run straight 100wt, the problem was it took forever to warm the oil up and then at take-off oil pressure was still 140psi.
Now we run 25W60, oil temps are the same and oil pressure at take-off is only 100psi, which is redline. Just an example of oil technology in aviation engines.
Last edited by jdnca1; 11-14-2002 at 12:01 PM.
11-15-2002, 06:35 AM
#34
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I agree with jdnca on the weight issue- if you have a problem maintaining a decent oil pressure with a thinner oil, you have an internal clearance issue that needs to be addressed. Thicker oil is a 'stop-gap' fix. Straight weights are excellent for marine, and yes, I do prefer in multi-vis in recip-engine aircraft. There was a thread on this board with a link a long time ago about best dino oils, and all the independent tests of them. If I remember correctly, Castrol GTX straight weight was the best oil in all the tests, and believe it or not, Chevron came in second. I have always loved Castrol oils!
As far as synthetics are concerned, you certainly can't go wrong using them. I certainly do not see the issue with synthetics in a roller cam engine; just because they are more slippery? They have a tendency to lower oil temps, they wet frictional surfaces better, and ''coat' better wehn the engine has been sitting. They are also VERY resistant to acid formation and contaminant build-up- the major reason you change that dino oil so often. Let's face it guys, we have the technology to make dino oils obsolete.
Be careful though, there are many different bases (or groups) of synthetics.
Your cheaper synthetics (Group III) actually have a highly refined dino oil base. These are the 'syntecs' and others available at your local WalMart. I'm not sure, but I think Mobil 1 is a Group III synthetic oil as well. It's cheap, and readily available, but it's not the best synthetic. Amsoil makes excellent Group III oils.
Next step up is Group IV- polyalphaolefin base. More expensive, true synthetic, no dino oil here. Upper end Amsoils are PAO base.
The most expensive synthetics are Group V; polyolester base, the same as used in turbine aircraft engines, where over 70% of an oils' purpose is to cool. Redline and Royal Purple are polyolester based oils. Redline Shockproof Heavy is as good as it gets in drive lube, and is recommended by TCM in their Bravos. I've used it for years in Alphas, with a lot of SBC power in front of them, and have yet to have one fail. No fuzz on the magnet, and lower operating temps than the green stuff.
I see no issue running a polyolester based synthetic in a boat engine for an entire season. Cold starts are much easier on the engine with a synthetic, it is less prone to condensation, and acid formation is almost non-existant. We can run the same oil in some turbine engines all the way to hot section (unless an early engine removal is necessary). Depending on the engine model, this is 1500+ hours.
Check out Amsoil, Redline, and Royal Purples' websites- they'll keep you busy reading for a while!
Dennis, I look forward to reading all your articles- thanks for contributing to this forum!
Jim
As far as synthetics are concerned, you certainly can't go wrong using them. I certainly do not see the issue with synthetics in a roller cam engine; just because they are more slippery? They have a tendency to lower oil temps, they wet frictional surfaces better, and ''coat' better wehn the engine has been sitting. They are also VERY resistant to acid formation and contaminant build-up- the major reason you change that dino oil so often. Let's face it guys, we have the technology to make dino oils obsolete.
Be careful though, there are many different bases (or groups) of synthetics.
Your cheaper synthetics (Group III) actually have a highly refined dino oil base. These are the 'syntecs' and others available at your local WalMart. I'm not sure, but I think Mobil 1 is a Group III synthetic oil as well. It's cheap, and readily available, but it's not the best synthetic. Amsoil makes excellent Group III oils.
Next step up is Group IV- polyalphaolefin base. More expensive, true synthetic, no dino oil here. Upper end Amsoils are PAO base.
The most expensive synthetics are Group V; polyolester base, the same as used in turbine aircraft engines, where over 70% of an oils' purpose is to cool. Redline and Royal Purple are polyolester based oils. Redline Shockproof Heavy is as good as it gets in drive lube, and is recommended by TCM in their Bravos. I've used it for years in Alphas, with a lot of SBC power in front of them, and have yet to have one fail. No fuzz on the magnet, and lower operating temps than the green stuff.
I see no issue running a polyolester based synthetic in a boat engine for an entire season. Cold starts are much easier on the engine with a synthetic, it is less prone to condensation, and acid formation is almost non-existant. We can run the same oil in some turbine engines all the way to hot section (unless an early engine removal is necessary). Depending on the engine model, this is 1500+ hours.
Check out Amsoil, Redline, and Royal Purples' websites- they'll keep you busy reading for a while!
Dennis, I look forward to reading all your articles- thanks for contributing to this forum!
Jim
Last edited by jafo; 11-15-2002 at 06:42 AM.
11-15-2002, 07:57 PM
#35
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Is that why I have been running Royal Purple for so many years?? Hmmmmm didnt know I made such a good choice. Thanks for the input jafo..
Dick
Dick
11-16-2002, 08:04 AM
#36
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Jafo, How does Valvoline synthetic oils stack up in the mix of the other brands?
In the other thread "What motor Oil?" 454hoho said that Power Boat Magazine did a write-up about the effects of synthetic oils on a roller cam/lifters.
In the other thread "What motor Oil?" 454hoho said that Power Boat Magazine did a write-up about the effects of synthetic oils on a roller cam/lifters.
11-16-2002, 08:43 PM
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kaama-
Synpower by valvoline would fall into a Group III oil- still dino based, but as refined as it gets without falling into 'full synthetic''.
Most, if not all the oils that are 'over-the-counter' synthetics found at Walmarts and auto stores are going to be Group I-III.
Although much more expensive, you get what you pay for in Group IV and V oils. I have never heard a complaint coming from Amsoil, Redline, or Royal Purple users. The hardest thing to do is to try it- we all get locked into what has worked for us the old fashioned way, but since the technology is there to make our motor oil last longer with fewer oil changes, this could only help the environment, and our ability to be less reliant on the fossil oils. As I said before, the biggest reason people change dino oil so often is because of contaminant build-up and acid formation. Not necessary with the best synthetics. Only the best synthetic lubes are used in jets- if it's good enough to use in a machine running 7 miles up, it's good enough for use in a boat engine.
This link probably explains the Group system as well as any I have found (although it is naturally biased towards Amsoil).
http://www.amsoil.com/articlespr/article_xl7500.htm
Jim
Synpower by valvoline would fall into a Group III oil- still dino based, but as refined as it gets without falling into 'full synthetic''.
Most, if not all the oils that are 'over-the-counter' synthetics found at Walmarts and auto stores are going to be Group I-III.
Although much more expensive, you get what you pay for in Group IV and V oils. I have never heard a complaint coming from Amsoil, Redline, or Royal Purple users. The hardest thing to do is to try it- we all get locked into what has worked for us the old fashioned way, but since the technology is there to make our motor oil last longer with fewer oil changes, this could only help the environment, and our ability to be less reliant on the fossil oils. As I said before, the biggest reason people change dino oil so often is because of contaminant build-up and acid formation. Not necessary with the best synthetics. Only the best synthetic lubes are used in jets- if it's good enough to use in a machine running 7 miles up, it's good enough for use in a boat engine.
This link probably explains the Group system as well as any I have found (although it is naturally biased towards Amsoil).
http://www.amsoil.com/articlespr/article_xl7500.htm
Jim
Last edited by jafo; 11-16-2002 at 08:48 PM.
11-16-2002, 09:43 PM
#38
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Jafo,
I have a few quarts of the Valvoline 20-50 synthetic oil that says it's a "FULL SYNTHETIC" right on the lable. How could it not be a full synthetic if it in deed says that it is a "Full Synthetic" on the lable? Or is it the cheap full synthetic Group III oil that (you have described in your last post) isn't really a true synthetic??? I'm not sure I'm understanding what you're saying. Are there cheap brands of full synthetics??? I appreciate your input.
I have a few quarts of the Valvoline 20-50 synthetic oil that says it's a "FULL SYNTHETIC" right on the lable. How could it not be a full synthetic if it in deed says that it is a "Full Synthetic" on the lable? Or is it the cheap full synthetic Group III oil that (you have described in your last post) isn't really a true synthetic??? I'm not sure I'm understanding what you're saying. Are there cheap brands of full synthetics??? I appreciate your input.
Last edited by KAAMA; 11-16-2002 at 09:48 PM.
11-18-2002, 08:27 AM
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kaama-
the NAD ruling allowed the mfg's of Group III synthetics to advertise them as full synthetic oils. One thing that is consistent with all the synthetic mfg's claims is this- no matter how much you refine dino oil, every molecule of it is different/inconsistent. Synthetic oils have identical molecule size and shape, and therefore better lubricating quality.
BTW, there seems to be a little mis-conception of what 'mineral oil' describes. In aviation, and from what I remember when I was involved in automotive, mineral oil describes dino oil that is non-detergent. It is used for break-in purposes only in recip aircraft engines, and even then, only for the first 25 hours. I know of a few automotive recip engine builders that still recommend mineral for break-in as well.
the NAD ruling allowed the mfg's of Group III synthetics to advertise them as full synthetic oils. One thing that is consistent with all the synthetic mfg's claims is this- no matter how much you refine dino oil, every molecule of it is different/inconsistent. Synthetic oils have identical molecule size and shape, and therefore better lubricating quality.
BTW, there seems to be a little mis-conception of what 'mineral oil' describes. In aviation, and from what I remember when I was involved in automotive, mineral oil describes dino oil that is non-detergent. It is used for break-in purposes only in recip aircraft engines, and even then, only for the first 25 hours. I know of a few automotive recip engine builders that still recommend mineral for break-in as well.
