Reprogramming EFI Computer MEFI3
11-30-2002, 08:55 PM
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Reprogramming EFI Computer MEFI3
Has anyone out there ever tried to reprogram the Merc EFI computers thereself? I know that Arizona, Whipple, and several others will do it for $300 a pop but has any amature ever been able to try?
My current project will require reprogramming of the ECU and my dad is an electrical engineer and he has reprogramed the ECUs off of LT1 car engines before. He seems to think that people have done it before and would like to learn. So would I.
Anybody?
Ron
My current project will require reprogramming of the ECU and my dad is an electrical engineer and he has reprogramed the ECUs off of LT1 car engines before. He seems to think that people have done it before and would like to learn. So would I.
Anybody?
Ron
11-30-2002, 09:53 PM
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That would be a great thing to do by ourselves. But, I think that we would have better luck finding the holy grail than getting that kind of information regarding re-programming.
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12-01-2002, 11:20 AM
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My opinion, but having an ecm reprogrammed without having the actual engine on a dyno to verify proper fuel and spark curves is the recipe for disaster. If you are serious about performance, longevity and what this industry gets beat up most for ---RELIABILITY, spend the money and get it done right. Do all you can yourself if thats what you like to do, but spend the $$$$ when it makes sense.
Prime example - bolt on any supercharger you want - no or minimal changes required - countless unhappy and disgruntled results. 7 years later now that one of these companies has the ability to do the triple nickel they say ECM reprogramming is a must. Whats changed? Only their ability to do it. They've known this all along as well as most quality shops. If it wasn't important, they wouldn't have spent the cash to aquire it.
A N/A engine is no different, you change the air or fuel flow, the computer is not capable of making the changes on its own, it needs to be programmed and without first understanding and knowing how and why the system does what it does and having the software to identify and change the parameters, its a crapshoot.
To my knowledge there are really only a half a dozen people in the country that have the software to do this. It costs anywhere from $1000 on up to have it done on a dyno. Its not about exhaust temps, its about A/F ratios and timing.
Yes its a considerable amount of money, but miniscual compared to having all the work you just completed turned into scrap. You can also avoid downtime in the middle of the boating season and having to face your cignificant other and tell them that you need to double or triple what you just spent in order to just get back boating again, not to mention without any benefit other than what you just learned.
If you are going to spend money on performance, spend enough to do it right. Yes EFI is nice, but its also expensive. If you can't afford it, carburetors have been known to make more than adequate HP to brake any Bravo out there.
Sorry about the rant, but I don't like to see people spend money on their passion only to have their candles blown out.
Rod
Prime example - bolt on any supercharger you want - no or minimal changes required - countless unhappy and disgruntled results. 7 years later now that one of these companies has the ability to do the triple nickel they say ECM reprogramming is a must. Whats changed? Only their ability to do it. They've known this all along as well as most quality shops. If it wasn't important, they wouldn't have spent the cash to aquire it.
A N/A engine is no different, you change the air or fuel flow, the computer is not capable of making the changes on its own, it needs to be programmed and without first understanding and knowing how and why the system does what it does and having the software to identify and change the parameters, its a crapshoot.
To my knowledge there are really only a half a dozen people in the country that have the software to do this. It costs anywhere from $1000 on up to have it done on a dyno. Its not about exhaust temps, its about A/F ratios and timing.
Yes its a considerable amount of money, but miniscual compared to having all the work you just completed turned into scrap. You can also avoid downtime in the middle of the boating season and having to face your cignificant other and tell them that you need to double or triple what you just spent in order to just get back boating again, not to mention without any benefit other than what you just learned.
If you are going to spend money on performance, spend enough to do it right. Yes EFI is nice, but its also expensive. If you can't afford it, carburetors have been known to make more than adequate HP to brake any Bravo out there.
Sorry about the rant, but I don't like to see people spend money on their passion only to have their candles blown out.
Rod
12-01-2002, 12:03 PM
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Ric232, my opinion again is that the engine needs to get put on a dyno to be mapped and then tweaked in the boat if necessary. There is at least one company in south FL that has this ability. The only company I know that really advertises reprogramming ECM's without the engine is ASM. The others that I know that reprogram will only do so if they do the work entirely. I am in complete agreement with that policy. No fingerpointing in the event of a failure. Hard to justify legal expenses and bad publicity for a $300 fee with no control of the actual end product. IE....installation, rigging, performance verification, testing, etc.
Rod
Rod
12-01-2002, 01:35 PM
#7
So what does that leave us? Buy turnkey products? There are a few but they are expensive and you pay for that expertise.
Pfaff-598CID-N/A-800hp
GTMarine-540CID-whipple-740hp
Eichert-572CID-S/C-700hp
Or go to aftermarket programmable EFI computers with fuel and timing control without O2 sensor or mass air flow meter
Of course to tune you need a wide band O2 sensor and a dyno.
Pfaff-598CID-N/A-800hp
GTMarine-540CID-whipple-740hp
Eichert-572CID-S/C-700hp
Or go to aftermarket programmable EFI computers with fuel and timing control without O2 sensor or mass air flow meter
Of course to tune you need a wide band O2 sensor and a dyno.
12-01-2002, 04:16 PM
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I am with RPM on this one. ECU re-mapping should only be done on a dyno where the results can be noted and adjusted properly. There have been too many horror stories posted here about this problem. I feel that stock Mercruiser EFI motors can be modified SLIGHTLY ( exhaust, flame arrestor, adjustable regulator) without too much to worry about, but after that it is up to being lucky with the re-mapped ECU.
12-01-2002, 04:55 PM
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RPM,
I would like to get a few things staghit, we've been reprogramming ECU's for some time now, we're one of the only SC companies that have always took an advanced approach to the EFI fuel systems.. When we couldn't reprogram ECU"s, we included a piggy back system which is the same as we do in the automotive field to pass 2003 ULEV emissions standards. You act like we've changed now that we have the rights to the 555 when I've stated many times that it's incredible that anybody out there can sale a product without some EFI change. All our systems come with reprogramming and or/piggy back systems. I guarantee, not one aftermarket performance company out there that has the tools and equipment for proper engine/calibration development when compared to us. Have we ever said reprogramming is not needed, just bolt this on and go? Never, you can't run our marine systems without! I think you need to make your statements much more clear and get your facts straghit.
We won't do complete custom cals in most cases because you can not charge a customer enough to be able to have any liability towards it. Dyno is only one small facet of the equation.
We deal with OEM level calibrations and projects, and the only reciepe for disaster is unqualified people working at a level they should not. If you have a production engine, and you have a base cal for that engine that you've tested, slight mods are easy to make. It's impossible to tune an entire engine without being there or having the proper software/tools for self calibration. Everything has to be tested at one time, but not everytime when things are kept the same. Do you think OEM custom cals every engine? You think marine might be tough, but it's simple in comparison to passing 50-state emissions standards.
Dustin
I would like to get a few things staghit, we've been reprogramming ECU's for some time now, we're one of the only SC companies that have always took an advanced approach to the EFI fuel systems.. When we couldn't reprogram ECU"s, we included a piggy back system which is the same as we do in the automotive field to pass 2003 ULEV emissions standards. You act like we've changed now that we have the rights to the 555 when I've stated many times that it's incredible that anybody out there can sale a product without some EFI change. All our systems come with reprogramming and or/piggy back systems. I guarantee, not one aftermarket performance company out there that has the tools and equipment for proper engine/calibration development when compared to us. Have we ever said reprogramming is not needed, just bolt this on and go? Never, you can't run our marine systems without! I think you need to make your statements much more clear and get your facts straghit.
We won't do complete custom cals in most cases because you can not charge a customer enough to be able to have any liability towards it. Dyno is only one small facet of the equation.
We deal with OEM level calibrations and projects, and the only reciepe for disaster is unqualified people working at a level they should not. If you have a production engine, and you have a base cal for that engine that you've tested, slight mods are easy to make. It's impossible to tune an entire engine without being there or having the proper software/tools for self calibration. Everything has to be tested at one time, but not everytime when things are kept the same. Do you think OEM custom cals every engine? You think marine might be tough, but it's simple in comparison to passing 50-state emissions standards.
Dustin
12-01-2002, 04:56 PM
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Sadly and Honestly, not much in the way of EFI. If you want to use Mercury products you need to get hooked up with someone that will do it for you. The aftermarket systems used by some builders is available to all, but even more expensive than Merc by the time you buy all the components and computers required to set a system up.
We've looked at using EFI Technologies, Haltech, Speedpro, Mototron and others, but the general public will never pay what it costs to purchase these systems on top of the cost of a custom engine that will make within 10% of the numbers of an EFI system for 4-10 times the cost of carb and distributor.
I agree with you, if you don't know what your A/F ratios are, you are guessing and hoping you got it right. Its a numbers game, yes some people will be lucky, most are not. When was the last time you saw a post from someone that did this and was happy with the results and would do it again?
My recommendation to the guys that are capable of and like doing it themselves is to work within their realm of knowledge and ability.
My point was simply that if you buy a bunch of parts from a bunch of different people because they said they were experts, put it together and expect a pre-programmed computer for and entirely different set of parameters to understand what you did and react to it accordingly is nothing but a recipe for disaster.
I like to go fast and see others go fast or I wouldn't do what I do for a living. I just hate to see people spend their money and end up badmouthing the performance market because what they did didn't work and then scream that us shops are raping them when it gets brought to us after the damage has already been done and we need to start over.
Going fast in a boat is not cheap and if you don't do it safely and reliably its even worse.
Sometimes reality just sucks!
Rod
We've looked at using EFI Technologies, Haltech, Speedpro, Mototron and others, but the general public will never pay what it costs to purchase these systems on top of the cost of a custom engine that will make within 10% of the numbers of an EFI system for 4-10 times the cost of carb and distributor.
I agree with you, if you don't know what your A/F ratios are, you are guessing and hoping you got it right. Its a numbers game, yes some people will be lucky, most are not. When was the last time you saw a post from someone that did this and was happy with the results and would do it again?
My recommendation to the guys that are capable of and like doing it themselves is to work within their realm of knowledge and ability.
My point was simply that if you buy a bunch of parts from a bunch of different people because they said they were experts, put it together and expect a pre-programmed computer for and entirely different set of parameters to understand what you did and react to it accordingly is nothing but a recipe for disaster.
I like to go fast and see others go fast or I wouldn't do what I do for a living. I just hate to see people spend their money and end up badmouthing the performance market because what they did didn't work and then scream that us shops are raping them when it gets brought to us after the damage has already been done and we need to start over.
Going fast in a boat is not cheap and if you don't do it safely and reliably its even worse.
Sometimes reality just sucks!
Rod
