InnerCooler ?
02-02-2003, 10:19 PM
#1
InnerCooler ?
Reading another thread on blowers and sizes and the subject of innercoolers was brought up so I thought I would start another thread on a question I have often thought about.
At what boost level is a innercooler really needed or required?
For this discusson lets say a 540 with 8.0cr and running a 1071 Littlefield blower. Dart aluminum heads (Older 320s with some work) and CMI Elbow top exhaust. Currently runs right at 6.5psi for boost.
At what boost level is a innercooler really needed or required?
For this discusson lets say a 540 with 8.0cr and running a 1071 Littlefield blower. Dart aluminum heads (Older 320s with some work) and CMI Elbow top exhaust. Currently runs right at 6.5psi for boost.
02-02-2003, 10:49 PM
#2
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Big blower - big motor - 320 heads - good exhaust - low boost.
I say NO.
but (with a cooler) at a given octane rating, you could go up to 8 pounds on the same gas with the same timing and have the same "safety margin" that you have as it sits now - at least that is my opinion.
Tomcat and 1500 would be able to argue the merits (or DEmerits) of that opinion with their experiences and recent tests...
I say NO.
but (with a cooler) at a given octane rating, you could go up to 8 pounds on the same gas with the same timing and have the same "safety margin" that you have as it sits now - at least that is my opinion.
Tomcat and 1500 would be able to argue the merits (or DEmerits) of that opinion with their experiences and recent tests...
Last edited by mcollinstn; 02-02-2003 at 11:20 PM.
02-02-2003, 11:05 PM
#3
Originally posted by mcollinstn
Big blower - big motor - 320 heads - good exhaust - low boost.
I say NO.
but at a given octane rating, you could go up to 8 pounds on the same gas with the same timing and have the same "safety margin" that you have as it sits now - at least that is my opinion.
Tomcat and 1500 would be able to argue the merits (or DEmerits) of that opinion with their experiences and recent tests...
Big blower - big motor - 320 heads - good exhaust - low boost.
I say NO.
but at a given octane rating, you could go up to 8 pounds on the same gas with the same timing and have the same "safety margin" that you have as it sits now - at least that is my opinion.
Tomcat and 1500 would be able to argue the merits (or DEmerits) of that opinion with their experiences and recent tests...
02-02-2003, 11:25 PM
#4
Guest
Posts: n/a
I thought that the denser the charge, the greater the advantage for the HP. So, by adding the intercooler at the same boost levels will result in higher HP's - no other changes.
Through your thinking... The denser charge means a cooler air which allows more boost with the same melt down point in our pistons. e.g. detonation point. What will it gain will be an equaton based on the efficiency of your blower in relation to its production of heat. Some say centrifical produce less heat per lb of boost that the roots style - also related to the size of the blower (6-71, 8-71... or M-1, M-3...)
I would think that you should go to the manufacturer of the blower to find out the efficiency rating at any given boost level and start making the equation based on the size of the intercooler's ability to remove heat.
I would have to look it up, but my set-up is a Prochager (height restrictions) where they gave me this formula to develop the necessary point of diminishing returns.
Too much heat per lb of boost... Add a lb of boost loose a potion of air density where these two numbers eventually counteract / eliminate each other. The efficiency of the system is what we are looking for - boost over the normal atmospheric pressure.
Red Racer
Through your thinking... The denser charge means a cooler air which allows more boost with the same melt down point in our pistons. e.g. detonation point. What will it gain will be an equaton based on the efficiency of your blower in relation to its production of heat. Some say centrifical produce less heat per lb of boost that the roots style - also related to the size of the blower (6-71, 8-71... or M-1, M-3...)
I would think that you should go to the manufacturer of the blower to find out the efficiency rating at any given boost level and start making the equation based on the size of the intercooler's ability to remove heat.
I would have to look it up, but my set-up is a Prochager (height restrictions) where they gave me this formula to develop the necessary point of diminishing returns.
Too much heat per lb of boost... Add a lb of boost loose a potion of air density where these two numbers eventually counteract / eliminate each other. The efficiency of the system is what we are looking for - boost over the normal atmospheric pressure.
Red Racer
02-02-2003, 11:57 PM
#5
Red Racer
All I can say is YEP to a point. An innercooler really is not worth it on LOW boost applications for the money in my opinion. (Wouldn't be the first time I was wrong) I consider my set up low boost for the parts I have assembled. I did a fair amount of reading 
before I set this motor up. I wanted the look of the Roots and height is an issue (must have rear deck sun pad for wife 
) so I went with a big blower and low boost. I am very happy with it. I sometimes just wonder how much more without an innercooler. I can fit a whipple innercooler manifold $$$$. I am just looking for some real life expierance on the board from those running or have set up blowers with no innercoolers. 
before I set this motor up. I wanted the look of the Roots and height is an issue (must have rear deck sun pad for wife ) so I went with a big blower and low boost. I am very happy with it. I sometimes just wonder how much more without an innercooler. I can fit a whipple innercooler manifold $$$$. I am just looking for some real life expierance on the board from those running or have set up blowers with no innercoolers.
02-03-2003, 12:45 AM
#6
Guest
Posts: n/a
No problems here...
I decided to go with the centrifical and remotely installed the intercooler. I have a small 21' Cole openbow with an 18" free board, so my clearance is nil....
I'll be listening to see what comes out of this thread... I keep mine down below 5lbs because my block still uses 8.9cr cast pistons. Or until it blows and I get a new one (strocked 454 up to a 540)... Next year's Xmas list. :D :D
I decided to go with the centrifical and remotely installed the intercooler. I have a small 21' Cole openbow with an 18" free board, so my clearance is nil....
I'll be listening to see what comes out of this thread... I keep mine down below 5lbs because my block still uses 8.9cr cast pistons. Or until it blows and I get a new one (strocked 454 up to a 540)... Next year's Xmas list. :D :D
02-03-2003, 09:25 AM
#7
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
red,
an intercooler will present a flow restriction to the intake path. Typically one will lose 1 to 2 pounds of boost thru a cooler due to a combo of the restriction AND the more dense charge. The denser charge, though, is more conducive to power production.
Adding a cooler with no other changes at all will usually result in a slight drop in horsepower except in cases where the charge heat was already bad enough to require drastic retardation of ignition timing, etc..
A cooler will allow MORE blower output for a given longblock configuration. If you add a cooler and speed up the blower to see the same boost as before, you are really blowing a couple pounds more than before then cooling it back to the original pressure. THIS gives more power cause it is more charge.
If you wish to see the effect of cooling the charge vs horsepower, then go see TomCats intercooler test results. HE tested the motor with NO cooling water vs cooling water thru the cooler. You'll see that YES you get horsepower from cooling, but not what you'd expect. Horsepower comes from BOOST. BOOST makes HEAT. gotta control HEAT or motor won't live.
also, you can't get 540 from a 454. gotta start with a 4.5" bore which you usually can't get out of a 454 block. Go with a 502 or if you got cash burning a hole, go with a 4.5" bore, 4.375 stroke tallblock with long rods...
luck to all.
an intercooler will present a flow restriction to the intake path. Typically one will lose 1 to 2 pounds of boost thru a cooler due to a combo of the restriction AND the more dense charge. The denser charge, though, is more conducive to power production.
Adding a cooler with no other changes at all will usually result in a slight drop in horsepower except in cases where the charge heat was already bad enough to require drastic retardation of ignition timing, etc..
A cooler will allow MORE blower output for a given longblock configuration. If you add a cooler and speed up the blower to see the same boost as before, you are really blowing a couple pounds more than before then cooling it back to the original pressure. THIS gives more power cause it is more charge.
If you wish to see the effect of cooling the charge vs horsepower, then go see TomCats intercooler test results. HE tested the motor with NO cooling water vs cooling water thru the cooler. You'll see that YES you get horsepower from cooling, but not what you'd expect. Horsepower comes from BOOST. BOOST makes HEAT. gotta control HEAT or motor won't live.
also, you can't get 540 from a 454. gotta start with a 4.5" bore which you usually can't get out of a 454 block. Go with a 502 or if you got cash burning a hole, go with a 4.5" bore, 4.375 stroke tallblock with long rods...
luck to all.
02-03-2003, 09:28 AM
#8
Registered
I agree with mcollinstn - What an intercooler does is give you a choice.
Assuming a compressor efficiency of 60% (good for a Roots style blower) and the boost level you mentioned, the blower will add about 100F to the air entering the intake manifold. Depending on the temperature of the ambient air and the amount of fuel evaporated in the blower itself you could easily reach 170F in the intake manifold.
If you have currently have a safety margin with 170F, you would have an even bigger safety margin with an intercooler that drops the temperature to say 100F. If you wanted to you could then change pulleys and trade some of that safety margin for more horsepower. The intercooler gives you the choice.
For a good article on adding the new Blower Shop intercooler check out the March 2003 Family and Performance Boating. If you can't find the magazine I reviewed the article in a thread in this section.
Assuming a compressor efficiency of 60% (good for a Roots style blower) and the boost level you mentioned, the blower will add about 100F to the air entering the intake manifold. Depending on the temperature of the ambient air and the amount of fuel evaporated in the blower itself you could easily reach 170F in the intake manifold.
If you have currently have a safety margin with 170F, you would have an even bigger safety margin with an intercooler that drops the temperature to say 100F. If you wanted to you could then change pulleys and trade some of that safety margin for more horsepower. The intercooler gives you the choice.
For a good article on adding the new Blower Shop intercooler check out the March 2003 Family and Performance Boating. If you can't find the magazine I reviewed the article in a thread in this section.
02-03-2003, 09:55 AM
#9
Guest
Posts: n/a
I just had to get in too. I agree with tomcat and mcollinstn.
I just did a Pro Charger on the dyno and we made one pull without the intercooler water. Power droped about 40 on a 900hp engine. The lower quality gas you get and the way your combustion chamber work help dictate how much you need the intercooler. I generally use one, but it is not always necessary and they do restrict flow.
Have a GREAT day
I just did a Pro Charger on the dyno and we made one pull without the intercooler water. Power droped about 40 on a 900hp engine. The lower quality gas you get and the way your combustion chamber work help dictate how much you need the intercooler. I generally use one, but it is not always necessary and they do restrict flow.
Have a GREAT day
02-04-2003, 07:45 PM
#10
Just bringing it back TTT and wanted to say thank you for sharing your knowledge and experience. I thinkI have read all of tomcats innercooler posts several times actually. Good info in there. I know innercooled is better but I know there are a number of non-innercooled blowers running out there. I think I may look in to hooking up a temperature probe in the manifold so I can know for sure what my intake temperature runs. Just a temporary set up with thermocouple probe and VOM for testing should work. Since as mcollinstn said you got to control the heat to make it live and that is what I am after really. 
