Oil filter temps vers oil temps???
12-11-2006, 05:15 PM
#31
Gold Member
Gold Member
Re: Oil filter temps vers oil temps???
Dick: This was a good thread that you posted. I have read yours and others that have had similiar high oil temps as well and I am curious about more info on your motors. Are you using a high volume or std oil pump? Did you ever get to the bottom of the T-Stat issue?
Thanks - Gary
Thanks - Gary
12-11-2006, 05:23 PM
#32
Re: Oil filter temps vers oil temps???
Originally Posted by MACDAD260
Hmm... I used an IR temp gun to check my oil filter and it read the same as the gauge so I figured the gauge was correct. A liquid like oil has enough mass to hold heat for quite a while. I would think that the temperature of the oil in the filter would be almost identical to the oil coming from the engine. Especially since it is moving all the time.
Check your Fluke thermocouple by putting it in a glass of ice water. It should be 32*. Then put it in a pan of boiling water. It should be about 210* at our altitude. If it is correct then I would say your gauge is off. Good luck.
Check your Fluke thermocouple by putting it in a glass of ice water. It should be 32*. Then put it in a pan of boiling water. It should be about 210* at our altitude. If it is correct then I would say your gauge is off. Good luck.
12-11-2006, 05:28 PM
#33
Registered
Re: Oil filter temps vers oil temps???
Originally Posted by Mr Gadgets
Cooltoys,
Check my post on Pot holes in cam lobes.. that will explain what I found. I did replace the cam and set it all back up. Ran the snot out of it on Sunday and my oil temps have not gone over the 225* mark. Well the gauge is not very well graduated, but the needle goes a bit over the 220* mark. I am liking what I see at this point. It still takes a while for the oil to get to temp, but it did that even with the stat in place, so it just plain wasnt functioning. Theroy was good, but in my case, practical application was not good. I want to know why. I spent hard earned money on that thing. But for now I am boating and that is what counts. I will be working on a different way to not cool the oil until it gets to temp. But too many irons in the fire at this moment.
Macdad, I am not sure what else is out there. In the begining of the boat rigging, I did my research and thought I was all set with the KE part. I will look at other stuff, when the cold weather hits, but for now, I am a happy camper. I ran from Muskegon to GH most of th way at speed yesterday. Even managed a best of 76mph in the slop. And like I said, I havent seen over 225*. I need some flatter water so I can make the whole 12mi run at 5000rpm to really test the system.
Like my buddy said... problem solved!
Thanks for everyone's input.
Dick
Check my post on Pot holes in cam lobes.. that will explain what I found. I did replace the cam and set it all back up. Ran the snot out of it on Sunday and my oil temps have not gone over the 225* mark. Well the gauge is not very well graduated, but the needle goes a bit over the 220* mark. I am liking what I see at this point. It still takes a while for the oil to get to temp, but it did that even with the stat in place, so it just plain wasnt functioning. Theroy was good, but in my case, practical application was not good. I want to know why. I spent hard earned money on that thing. But for now I am boating and that is what counts. I will be working on a different way to not cool the oil until it gets to temp. But too many irons in the fire at this moment.
Macdad, I am not sure what else is out there. In the begining of the boat rigging, I did my research and thought I was all set with the KE part. I will look at other stuff, when the cold weather hits, but for now, I am a happy camper. I ran from Muskegon to GH most of th way at speed yesterday. Even managed a best of 76mph in the slop. And like I said, I havent seen over 225*. I need some flatter water so I can make the whole 12mi run at 5000rpm to really test the system.
Like my buddy said... problem solved!
Thanks for everyone's input.
Dick
Did you ever see what was wrong with your KE thermostats?I have two of them and I think they are acting up also.
Thanks Nordic95
12-11-2006, 05:53 PM
#34
Charter Member #601
Charter MemberThread Starter
Re: Oil filter temps vers oil temps???
Gary, I am using a HV pump that I get from Steff's, who made my pan. It is a Melling HV pump if I believe.
The solution:
Well actually, I removed the KE unit and found my oil takes as long to heat up as it did before with it installed, but my oil temps only go to about 220* maybe 230*. So I am convinced that the KE unit was not shutting off completely, allowing oil to bypass the cooler.
So this year I designed a differnt type of oil cooler bypass. I am bypassing the water through the cooler until oil gets to temp and then run the water thru it.. The oil temp comes up much faster and stays at temp.. At this point I have not mounted the actuator, and have been operating it manually.. But I do like the way it works.
Still havent found time to send the KE unit back to have them look at it. Just another high dollar part on the shelf that doesnt work.. Maybe this winter.. nope too busy doing drives .. well soon I hope I can send it back..
Hope this helps..
Dick
The solution:
Well actually, I removed the KE unit and found my oil takes as long to heat up as it did before with it installed, but my oil temps only go to about 220* maybe 230*. So I am convinced that the KE unit was not shutting off completely, allowing oil to bypass the cooler.
So this year I designed a differnt type of oil cooler bypass. I am bypassing the water through the cooler until oil gets to temp and then run the water thru it.. The oil temp comes up much faster and stays at temp.. At this point I have not mounted the actuator, and have been operating it manually.. But I do like the way it works.
Still havent found time to send the KE unit back to have them look at it. Just another high dollar part on the shelf that doesnt work.. Maybe this winter.. nope too busy doing drives .. well soon I hope I can send it back..
Hope this helps..
Dick
12-11-2006, 08:31 PM
#35
10x
VIP Member
Re: Oil filter temps vers oil temps???
I had a similiar problem a couple years back with the same KE oil thers. 
Thought I might've connected the hoses on backwards. NOPE, It turned out to be that BOTH units had thermstats that were stuck closed till they hit temps of 250-260. I took them apart and boiled the stats, would'nt open, even at 230*. I had to put them into a oven and bake em. It took between 250-260* to get them to open. Replaced them, and the engines ran at 215-220 @ cruise and 225-230 at wot.
Thought I might've connected the hoses on backwards. NOPE, It turned out to be that BOTH units had thermstats that were stuck closed till they hit temps of 250-260. I took them apart and boiled the stats, would'nt open, even at 230*. I had to put them into a oven and bake em. It took between 250-260* to get them to open. Replaced them, and the engines ran at 215-220 @ cruise and 225-230 at wot.
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Fountain powerboats rule "The Preacher"
Chicago Powerboat Club Director
[email protected]
www.chicagopowerboat.com
12-11-2006, 10:21 PM
#36
Gold Member
Gold Member
Re: Oil filter temps vers oil temps???
Thanks Dick, it does help me to understand more. In case your interested, I seem to have the same plague too with high oil temps (+250*) concerning 500hp motors built for my Fountain.
Eddie Marine 3"x15" coolers
Mocal sandwich T Stats (High Flow units)
First run - 240* - Mocal sandwich stats were suspected of not closing at the proper temps to direct oil to the coolers. Pulled them off and hand tested them on a stove with hot oil in a sauce pan to verify temp. At 240* they did not close completely, so I sent them back and BAT Inc (Mocal) R&R'd them and returned them. Next, I retested Tstats and this time I saw 187* closing temperature before putting them back on the motors. After running them again, I still had 240* so issue was still there for me.
Next, I plugged one bypass in both motors and retested. Temps might have dropped by 5*to 10* hard to be sure since gauge graduation spands from 230* to 320*. I did notice a decrease in oil pressure by about 10psi overall (hot and cold) I had to pull a motor to plug bypasses on both motors. Not fun since a 32' Fever does not have much room. Uhrrg!
This lead me to read more of this plague many suffer and after reading several more postings concernig high oil temps from modified motors, it seems to me the common denominator for this issue appears to be more related to using a HV oil pump. I too have the melling HV pump in both of my motors.
I think the next step for me is to pull both motors back out, drop the pans and put new std oil pumps in over the Christmas holiday.
Hey, but on a lighter note, it's great to still be able to go boating in December! Thanks again, Gary
Eddie Marine 3"x15" coolers
Mocal sandwich T Stats (High Flow units)
First run - 240* - Mocal sandwich stats were suspected of not closing at the proper temps to direct oil to the coolers. Pulled them off and hand tested them on a stove with hot oil in a sauce pan to verify temp. At 240* they did not close completely, so I sent them back and BAT Inc (Mocal) R&R'd them and returned them. Next, I retested Tstats and this time I saw 187* closing temperature before putting them back on the motors. After running them again, I still had 240* so issue was still there for me.
Next, I plugged one bypass in both motors and retested. Temps might have dropped by 5*to 10* hard to be sure since gauge graduation spands from 230* to 320*. I did notice a decrease in oil pressure by about 10psi overall (hot and cold) I had to pull a motor to plug bypasses on both motors. Not fun since a 32' Fever does not have much room. Uhrrg!
This lead me to read more of this plague many suffer and after reading several more postings concernig high oil temps from modified motors, it seems to me the common denominator for this issue appears to be more related to using a HV oil pump. I too have the melling HV pump in both of my motors.
I think the next step for me is to pull both motors back out, drop the pans and put new std oil pumps in over the Christmas holiday.
Hey, but on a lighter note, it's great to still be able to go boating in December! Thanks again, Gary
12-12-2006, 07:40 AM
#37
Charter Member #601
Charter MemberThread Starter
Re: Oil filter temps vers oil temps???
Gary,
Have you tried running them without the tstat? Not sure how that unit is setup. I dont know anyone that is running standard volume pumps. I do have all my bypasses plugged to force all the oil through the filters and cooler. Without the KE unit, I have a hard time getting 230* on my guauge. After a long run, maybe 15miles it would go to and stay at 230* this past summer.. I am also running a 3"x15" cooler.
I did the boiling water thing and the stat opened and closed very close to proper temps. I didnt however do it with oil, that maybe the culprit??
I like the idea of HV pump, but I dont know how much heat it creates.. I am happy with the oil temps I see at this point.
Another cause of hot oil is detonation and improper oil control as it is tossed off the crank. What kind of pans are you using and how do they wipe the oil as it is thrown off the crank throws?
Dick
Have you tried running them without the tstat? Not sure how that unit is setup. I dont know anyone that is running standard volume pumps. I do have all my bypasses plugged to force all the oil through the filters and cooler. Without the KE unit, I have a hard time getting 230* on my guauge. After a long run, maybe 15miles it would go to and stay at 230* this past summer.. I am also running a 3"x15" cooler.
I did the boiling water thing and the stat opened and closed very close to proper temps. I didnt however do it with oil, that maybe the culprit??
I like the idea of HV pump, but I dont know how much heat it creates.. I am happy with the oil temps I see at this point.
Another cause of hot oil is detonation and improper oil control as it is tossed off the crank. What kind of pans are you using and how do they wipe the oil as it is thrown off the crank throws?
Dick
12-12-2006, 10:30 AM
#38
Gold Member
Gold Member
Re: Oil filter temps vers oil temps???
Dick: I have kicked around the idea of running without the oil T-stat just to see what it does and may do so just to understand more about the variables of this heat issue.
All of the bends in my plumbing are soft radius 90* Aeroquip except for where the oil enters the T-Stat sandwich plate and it immediately hits a wall and is then directed over to the line for the cooler or filter. (dependant on temperature).
Then on return from the cooler, there is similair repeat (restriction) as the oil would then slam into the T-stat mechanism and be forced up and through the filter. So if yours is similair to mine, I can see how it may make a difference. Here is a link to a view of the mocal unit at the bottom of the page: It is the SP1T-HF unit.
http://64.202.180.37/files/sp1t.pdf
I too leaned towards the HV pump during the design. However, before the changes I made to my motors, oil temp stayed around 180*cruising and maybe 200* @WOT with the stock 2"x13" cooler!
Our (yours and mine) cooler size increased to more than double the capacity of the stock cooler. Looking mathmatically, the area is represented as A=3.14 r^2 (pie x radius squared)
For area of the stock cooler , it would be = 12.56 in and 28.26 in for the area of the 3 inch coolers we have. Volume calculation would show even a larger number difference.
My motors gained about 100hp, but at cruise speed, I may only be using half or more of the motors output.
Since temps went from 180* to 240* at cruise and no other changes were made, it seems to me the overlooked factor is that more heat is being put into the oil. If nothing else but the e HV pump has changed, it seems thinkable that oil is not moving fast enough through the system for what the pump's capacity is able to put it out. Friction from a HV pump could be transferring more heat to the oil than we think. The anolagy I think about is a high horsepower car trying to push a load up hill, spinning the tires and generating a lot of heat.
To answer your question, I am using a stock 8 qt mercruiser pans with stock windage trays. Timing is set at 12* and I am using 22* advance HP modules.
Gary
All of the bends in my plumbing are soft radius 90* Aeroquip except for where the oil enters the T-Stat sandwich plate and it immediately hits a wall and is then directed over to the line for the cooler or filter. (dependant on temperature).
Then on return from the cooler, there is similair repeat (restriction) as the oil would then slam into the T-stat mechanism and be forced up and through the filter. So if yours is similair to mine, I can see how it may make a difference. Here is a link to a view of the mocal unit at the bottom of the page: It is the SP1T-HF unit.
http://64.202.180.37/files/sp1t.pdf
I too leaned towards the HV pump during the design. However, before the changes I made to my motors, oil temp stayed around 180*cruising and maybe 200* @WOT with the stock 2"x13" cooler!
Our (yours and mine) cooler size increased to more than double the capacity of the stock cooler. Looking mathmatically, the area is represented as A=3.14 r^2 (pie x radius squared)
For area of the stock cooler , it would be = 12.56 in and 28.26 in for the area of the 3 inch coolers we have. Volume calculation would show even a larger number difference.
My motors gained about 100hp, but at cruise speed, I may only be using half or more of the motors output.
Since temps went from 180* to 240* at cruise and no other changes were made, it seems to me the overlooked factor is that more heat is being put into the oil. If nothing else but the e HV pump has changed, it seems thinkable that oil is not moving fast enough through the system for what the pump's capacity is able to put it out. Friction from a HV pump could be transferring more heat to the oil than we think. The anolagy I think about is a high horsepower car trying to push a load up hill, spinning the tires and generating a lot of heat.
To answer your question, I am using a stock 8 qt mercruiser pans with stock windage trays. Timing is set at 12* and I am using 22* advance HP modules.
Gary
12-12-2006, 02:52 PM
#39
Charter Member #601
Charter MemberThread Starter
Re: Oil filter temps vers oil temps???
What kind of oil PSI are you seeing at cruise speeds? I run about 50psi at 3500 with the HV pump. All my lines are #10AN which is small and have all 90* radius bends.
I have a hard time thinking the oil pump creates that much heat over what it was. If that were the case, others would be finding similar results.. I would eliminate the T-stat and see what happens. I take it you had the stats previous to the motor mods?
My stat is step differently.. and should work in theory, I was very surprised to see such a big diff in operation after removing it. Especially after testing the stat in the pot on the stove..
Your timing sounds very reasonable. The stock windage, well I dont know?? But I think it would be easier to take the stats off and try it before removing the motors and then the oil pumps dont seem to fix it..
Are you getting proper water flow thru the cooler, that could be another issue?? Just thinking out loud. I used the temp gun to look at water and oil temps around the system.. that helped. Are you monitoring oil temp before or after the cooler??
Dick
I have a hard time thinking the oil pump creates that much heat over what it was. If that were the case, others would be finding similar results.. I would eliminate the T-stat and see what happens. I take it you had the stats previous to the motor mods?
My stat is step differently.. and should work in theory, I was very surprised to see such a big diff in operation after removing it. Especially after testing the stat in the pot on the stove..
Your timing sounds very reasonable. The stock windage, well I dont know?? But I think it would be easier to take the stats off and try it before removing the motors and then the oil pumps dont seem to fix it..
Are you getting proper water flow thru the cooler, that could be another issue?? Just thinking out loud. I used the temp gun to look at water and oil temps around the system.. that helped. Are you monitoring oil temp before or after the cooler??
Dick
12-12-2006, 05:32 PM
#40
Gold Member
Gold Member
Re: Oil filter temps vers oil temps???
Before plugging the bypass, I saw 50psi cruising @3500rpm as well. After plugging, it dropped 5 psi maybe because some flow was by-passing the cooler.
The stock HP500 from Mercruiser, I have been told is plumbed in -8AN, so your -10AN plumbing should have been big enough.
I have to admit that initially, I did not put much stock in the oil pump putting heat into the oil either!
However, after discussing all of this with a mechanical engineer/ co-worker, he put more emphasis towards the HV pump being the issue. He referenced a blower making 5-7psi of boost going into an engine. The blower works similairly in that it is a pump and transfers a significant amount of heat to the air/fuel mixture. Couldn't argue with that point.
I have read many other posts, where others are experiencing what we have and no one has been able to put their finger on the issue. Some others did reference using a HV pump which is relative.
My Tstats are new, since Mercruiser did not put them in their 502/mpi motors.
H2O pumps are relatively new and I have made sure there is no bent, kinked hoses or restrictions. Plenty of water seems to be traveling through the cooler and the oil temps are taken before the them.
OK, just to see, I will pull the T-stats off tomorrow, reconnect the lines and try to retest the boat in a day or so just to see if it follows the same pattern as yours did. Will post the results.
I appreciate the dialog buddy,
Gary
The stock HP500 from Mercruiser, I have been told is plumbed in -8AN, so your -10AN plumbing should have been big enough.
I have to admit that initially, I did not put much stock in the oil pump putting heat into the oil either!
However, after discussing all of this with a mechanical engineer/ co-worker, he put more emphasis towards the HV pump being the issue. He referenced a blower making 5-7psi of boost going into an engine. The blower works similairly in that it is a pump and transfers a significant amount of heat to the air/fuel mixture. Couldn't argue with that point.
I have read many other posts, where others are experiencing what we have and no one has been able to put their finger on the issue. Some others did reference using a HV pump which is relative.
My Tstats are new, since Mercruiser did not put them in their 502/mpi motors.
H2O pumps are relatively new and I have made sure there is no bent, kinked hoses or restrictions. Plenty of water seems to be traveling through the cooler and the oil temps are taken before the them.
OK, just to see, I will pull the T-stats off tomorrow, reconnect the lines and try to retest the boat in a day or so just to see if it follows the same pattern as yours did. Will post the results.
I appreciate the dialog buddy,
Gary
