nordic vs sonic
#11
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My 28 with a 496 at sea level ran 67 once...that was downhill! 65 most days, 62 summer heat. The only time it saw 70+ was on the trailer.
I had it in Long Island Sound which can get a decent chop, not the best ride with 22 degrees and a pad. I think it's a better lake boat, it definitely wasn't constructed to be an offshore boat. That being said it had a great cabin, great looking, great fit & finish.
Sonic is going to be a better Lake Ontario boat. Now there was a 35 Flame around here which did well in these waters...better bet than the 28.
I had it in Long Island Sound which can get a decent chop, not the best ride with 22 degrees and a pad. I think it's a better lake boat, it definitely wasn't constructed to be an offshore boat. That being said it had a great cabin, great looking, great fit & finish.
Sonic is going to be a better Lake Ontario boat. Now there was a 35 Flame around here which did well in these waters...better bet than the 28.
Regards,
Steve
Last edited by Steve Zuckerman; 09-25-2009 at 10:25 PM.
#12
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I think you're better off with a bigger twin. I'm not sure I could ever go back to a single again after a twin. However, cash is king. The bigger twins cost more to run for sure.
I had the Nordic for 3 seasons on Long Island Sound, and I've been on a 28 Pantera on the same body of water. There is no comparison as to the ride between the two, Pantera without question is much better in the slop. It has a sharp entry and 24 degree deadrise and no steps, notches, or any other garbage. However, the freeboard on the Pantera is terrible and the fit and finish is not even close to the Nordic. Take away the swim platform and notch in the Nordic and it's not really a 28' boat, the Pantera is all hull. I guess you can't have it all. Maybe you can look at a 28 AT?
I had the Nordic for 3 seasons on Long Island Sound, and I've been on a 28 Pantera on the same body of water. There is no comparison as to the ride between the two, Pantera without question is much better in the slop. It has a sharp entry and 24 degree deadrise and no steps, notches, or any other garbage. However, the freeboard on the Pantera is terrible and the fit and finish is not even close to the Nordic. Take away the swim platform and notch in the Nordic and it's not really a 28' boat, the Pantera is all hull. I guess you can't have it all. Maybe you can look at a 28 AT?
Check out the new 28' Pantera SR. It some has two big steps, a notch, and probably more "garbage"
![Lolhit](/forums/images/smilies/more/lolhit.gif)
Like maybe the straight deep V still works, but it is far from being the most efficient hull form. Check it out www.panteraboats.com BTW, I love this boat. Check out the hull lighting.........
Regards,
Steve
Last edited by Steve Zuckerman; 09-25-2009 at 10:30 PM.
#13
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Like maybe the straight deep V still works, but is far from being the most efficient hull form. Check it out www.panteraboats.com BTW, I love this boat. Check out the hull lighting.........
Regards,
Steve
Regards,
Steve
Last edited by Indy; 09-26-2009 at 06:05 AM.
#14
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I just checked out that link to Pantera that is posted. I just don't understand why these builders don't add a little more room in the cockpit. Even on the 36, it looks as if you would barely keep from banging your knees if your in the back seat. How about stealing 6 inches from the engine compartment and 6-12" from the cabin. These boats would be more user and family friendly, Just my 02.
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My own testing with the 28 and it's single step showed that the fastest speed was trimmed out to the point where the step didn't even come into play. I used labbed props and stock props with a mild power engine. Maybe my Heat was just an aberration and others get different results but my observations are over a full 2 1/3 year period and money wasted on testing with my specific boat. Maybe its my waters too, calm lake like conditions are infrequent and precise testing a bit harder, but I did it whenever I got the chance. I actually found the biggest difference maker was the weather! Hot humid days differed vastly from the cooler dryer days. A little chop better than flat sticky calm too.
My buddy has a '05 PowerPlay 33' conventional hull with Merc 525's spinning stock 32 Bravos. He could run 88 pretty consistently with none of the quirks of the steps. A 525 Fountain that supposedly has the "fastest" hull runs 90 on a practical basis. Maybe it's more of a weight thing than steps? And there isn't much argument in my mind about which boat I'd rather be on in crappy water. Two mph means nothing to me compared to its ability to handle rougher conditions, and maybe thats where a line is drawn between performance boaters. Bow entry angle, transom deadrise also come into play. 22 degree hulls seem to be quicker than the sharper 24s but you take a beating in the chop, also pads compromise ride unless you're in lake conditions. But in the end, 2 mph could be a difference maker to others and worth the price of steps.
So when I make the comment of "garbage" in reference to steps, notches, swim platforms, etc. it's coming from a different perspective than yours. Mine is from boating 35 years in choppy waters where hull length is worth more than a slight increase in performance so I look unfavorably on notches and swim platforms (and beaks for that matter!) thus my perspective when addressing the original poster. Lake Ontario has to be some rough waters, I'd rather give him real world feedback so he doesn't make the same mistakes I have.
Last edited by Indy; 09-27-2009 at 10:49 AM.
#16
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Indy,
FYI, Fountain says their new 35' runs 100+ with stock 525s.
You had a stock Heat that was evidently marginal for your conditions, and I agree your regular boating waters should be a high consideration for hull length and type.
I also think you are looking at things from a traditionalist point of view, which is OK for you. I venture to think most people on OSO fall into the serious performance side, like me.
There are only 2 ways to make a boat go faster. Raise the horsepower to weight ratio (always fun from my perspective), or make more efficient use of the available horsepower it has. I'm for both.
Freeing up a heavy offshore hull by ventilating the bottom is just common sense. If it weren't, why would Nordic, Eliminator, Cigarette, Fountain, Outerlimits, Hustler, Howard, Formula, Lavey, Donzi, etc, etc, etc all be using them? Why did they spend millions building and modifying their molds if their old deep vees were adequate? Is it just bulll**** marketing as you say? Wow, these guys must all be sitting around one big f'ing boardroom table because they all have their rap down. All of them say their boats are 5 to 10% faster with the same HP and step hulls. Nordic's new 42'er with a very full plush cabin just ran over 100 with stock warranteed Merc 700s, as did Fountain's 42'er with Illmore 700s. That's efficient. I think they were all attempting to make their hulls more efficient so they could deliver respectable performance with factory warrateed engine packages.
You also seem to infer that step boats have handling quirks and don't handle rough water as well as straight Vs. That's just not true. With dual hydraulic steering my 82 MPH Baja chinewalked. I could drive it because I've driven and raced much faster (100+) pad vee outboards (Checkmate/Baja/Allison/Bullet/etc), but it was annoying. My 92 MPH Nordic handles so well I can take my hands off the wheel at WOT in good water, not that I recommend that. I'll quote from Powerboat (August 2009) regarding the two boats I mentioned above. Bob Teague/John Tomlinson on the Fountain "it's completely predictable, and on a string the whole time", "I didn't even have to touch the steering wheel, really"; and on the Nordic "This thing handles good through the turns and slaloms, It's just an all around nice boat", "Test driver John Tomlinson agreed, giving the v-bottom top marks in turning and slalom drills, as well as tracking at all speeds".
I remember a Powerplay crashing off the west coast of Florida a couple of years ago, tragically killing at least one occupant. Does this mean all true V bottoms are dangerous? Of course not, the driver was in over his head and spun the boat out.
It's just the march of technology. I guess there are people who embrace new technology, and there are those who don't.
Regards,
Steve
FYI, Fountain says their new 35' runs 100+ with stock 525s.
You had a stock Heat that was evidently marginal for your conditions, and I agree your regular boating waters should be a high consideration for hull length and type.
I also think you are looking at things from a traditionalist point of view, which is OK for you. I venture to think most people on OSO fall into the serious performance side, like me.
There are only 2 ways to make a boat go faster. Raise the horsepower to weight ratio (always fun from my perspective), or make more efficient use of the available horsepower it has. I'm for both.
Freeing up a heavy offshore hull by ventilating the bottom is just common sense. If it weren't, why would Nordic, Eliminator, Cigarette, Fountain, Outerlimits, Hustler, Howard, Formula, Lavey, Donzi, etc, etc, etc all be using them? Why did they spend millions building and modifying their molds if their old deep vees were adequate? Is it just bulll**** marketing as you say? Wow, these guys must all be sitting around one big f'ing boardroom table because they all have their rap down. All of them say their boats are 5 to 10% faster with the same HP and step hulls. Nordic's new 42'er with a very full plush cabin just ran over 100 with stock warranteed Merc 700s, as did Fountain's 42'er with Illmore 700s. That's efficient. I think they were all attempting to make their hulls more efficient so they could deliver respectable performance with factory warrateed engine packages.
You also seem to infer that step boats have handling quirks and don't handle rough water as well as straight Vs. That's just not true. With dual hydraulic steering my 82 MPH Baja chinewalked. I could drive it because I've driven and raced much faster (100+) pad vee outboards (Checkmate/Baja/Allison/Bullet/etc), but it was annoying. My 92 MPH Nordic handles so well I can take my hands off the wheel at WOT in good water, not that I recommend that. I'll quote from Powerboat (August 2009) regarding the two boats I mentioned above. Bob Teague/John Tomlinson on the Fountain "it's completely predictable, and on a string the whole time", "I didn't even have to touch the steering wheel, really"; and on the Nordic "This thing handles good through the turns and slaloms, It's just an all around nice boat", "Test driver John Tomlinson agreed, giving the v-bottom top marks in turning and slalom drills, as well as tracking at all speeds".
I remember a Powerplay crashing off the west coast of Florida a couple of years ago, tragically killing at least one occupant. Does this mean all true V bottoms are dangerous? Of course not, the driver was in over his head and spun the boat out.
It's just the march of technology. I guess there are people who embrace new technology, and there are those who don't.
Regards,
Steve
Last edited by Steve Zuckerman; 09-27-2009 at 07:44 PM.
#17
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Steve...the step/non-step is kinda like politics and religion...hard to change anyones mind!!
I know Reggie says 100 with 525s but I'll take real world info before Reggie, this from a Lightning owner:
I'm not sure sure everybody on here is a performance junkie either. Plenty of Cafe, Apache, Pantera, PP, conv Top Gun, et al. owners having tons of fun with their old technology boats.
And yes I believe that much of the step claims are marketing and profit driven.
Forums like this are replete with stories of accidents due to improper use of stepped hulls, they aren't for the novice boater and there are now courses on how to drive these things properly due to the many incidents. Teague and Tomlinson are at the top of the heap here and can drive the shorts off of just about anybody, but that doesn't eliminate the potential for issues with less experienced drivers.
The PP accident you referenced was a result of irresponsible driving in shallow waters not quirky handling characteristics.
I believe that high tech materials and newer laminating techniques resulting in lighter boats has much to do with increased speeds too as you referenced in your power to weight ratio comment.
In the end you like what you like, I like what I like, and that's that. I'm glad you like your Nordic, it's a fine boat for sure...in fact I think you own the boat that I ordered and Nordic F'd up by not following my color/pattern choices.
So if we're ever on the same body of water, wave as you go by...I'll be the pokey one in the old fashioned boat.
I know Reggie says 100 with 525s but I'll take real world info before Reggie, this from a Lightning owner:
I have an '06 with 525's and 90 is an honest number, can be slightly better with some prop work. We spend every weekend on the boat and have plenty of room to be comfortable, little more space in this one as compared to the single step 35 I had before. Great boat, handles the water very well, is fairly efficient on fuel, and is a lot of fun to run, 90+ on stock turn key power is hard to beat.
And yes I believe that much of the step claims are marketing and profit driven.
Forums like this are replete with stories of accidents due to improper use of stepped hulls, they aren't for the novice boater and there are now courses on how to drive these things properly due to the many incidents. Teague and Tomlinson are at the top of the heap here and can drive the shorts off of just about anybody, but that doesn't eliminate the potential for issues with less experienced drivers.
The PP accident you referenced was a result of irresponsible driving in shallow waters not quirky handling characteristics.
I believe that high tech materials and newer laminating techniques resulting in lighter boats has much to do with increased speeds too as you referenced in your power to weight ratio comment.
In the end you like what you like, I like what I like, and that's that. I'm glad you like your Nordic, it's a fine boat for sure...in fact I think you own the boat that I ordered and Nordic F'd up by not following my color/pattern choices.
So if we're ever on the same body of water, wave as you go by...I'll be the pokey one in the old fashioned boat.
#18
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A side by side 525 35 Fountain has run up to 92mph I believe, honest 90. The staggered ones run 100+ with the right load and conditions. Just clearing up speed numbers.